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Author Topic: Budget 2014  (Read 48659 times)  Share 

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brenden

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Re: Budget 2014
« Reply #150 on: May 22, 2014, 10:39:29 pm »
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Well either way something is obviously flawed with the system.
I'll give you a little example.
My parents work their ass off in factories yet because they meet (just) the limit, i don't get any youth allowance while people get 200 bucks of youth allowance a week because while both of their parents work the mum works in a nail salon, gets paid in cash and doesn't report it. Not to mention we have to pay 60 bucks for meds while they only pay five bucks.
Too many people cheat the system.
I think what you're looking for, then, is "I say reduce the amount of people cheating the system". Obviously the system is flawed, but that doesn't mean welfare is. If your parents are in factories, you should be for welfare, because that's what's going to save the workmates of your parents (or even your parents) when whatever company decides they need to save money and make half their staff redundant. 
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chasej

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Re: Budget 2014
« Reply #151 on: May 23, 2014, 12:03:18 am »
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I think what you're looking for, then, is "I say reduce the amount of people cheating the system". Obviously the system is flawed, but that doesn't mean welfare is. If your parents are in factories, you should be for welfare, because that's what's going to save the workmates of your parents (or even your parents) when whatever company decides they need to save money and make half their staff redundant.

Most of the flaws in the system although a large amount of money, aren't a huge amount of money relative to other budget items. The flaws in the welfare system isn't what is causing the budget defecit quite clearly.

Evidence:
Quote
The $1.8 billion in overpayments in 2011-12 was up from $1.7 billion the previous year.

Human Services Department spokeswoman Andrea Fox said the figure of payments wrongfully claimed was "relatively low" when compared to how much money was paid out in total.
-The overpayments also include honest mistakes people make when filling out applications so only a small subset is actually people abusing the system. It is also worth knowing a very very small amount of cases actually resulted in a conviction for fraud, indicating serious fraud is very rare in the Australian system, I will however concede with the high conviction rate for those charged with such frauds, the probably don't charge people unless they have definitive evidence and it is of the most serious cases, probably because the cost of mounting a prosecution probably exceeds the debt the wrongful claimers actually owe back, again just how miniscule the issue of fraud actually is.

from: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/government-cracks-down-on-welfare-fraud/story-e6frg6n6-1226619846555
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slothpomba

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Re: Budget 2014
« Reply #152 on: May 23, 2014, 12:26:28 am »
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My parents work their ass off in factories yet because they meet (just) the limit, i don't get any youth allowance while people get 200 bucks of youth allowance a week because while both of their parents work the mum works in a nail salon, gets paid in cash and doesn't report it. Not to mention we have to pay 60 bucks for meds while they only pay five bucks.
Too many people cheat the system.


The limit has to be set somewhere. A limit by its very nature will have many people who fall just outside it. If we raised it by a bit, you'd get youth allowance but then we'd have other people claiming they missed because they're just over the limit. It's unfortunate you landed in this situation but i hope you can see why it happened.

They are doing multiple illegal things, it is not a virtuous life to lead. The system is designed with the intention that people are honest, like almost every other law or social system out there. Take waiting in a line, the very principal of a line only works if no one pushes, if everyone takes there place. The very idea of having a line is based on the assumption people will actually wait there turn, its the same deal here. They are criminals and they are evading tax, that does not mean we should punish the majority of good, law abiding citizens who need money to live though.

What is the outcome of what you say? You say there are cheats but what then do you think we ought to do about it? Cut welfare payments? Punish the innocent majority because a few minority members cheat it? That's a very bad legal and moral precedent - punishing the innocent majority for something a minority has done. Some people use kitchen knifes to spread people open but most people just use it to spread butter, we should hardly get rid of kitchen knives. It makes no sense to throw the baby out with the bath water.

Here is a piece of literature from a few centuries ago. It should reminded us how far we have come. It is only through social progress and a strong welfare state that the life of the average worker has become far less cruel than what is written here. We should be constantly on guard of a slow slip backwards. Especially one so gradually sinister and slow that it merely chisels aways fragments until we find we have nothing left.

A little excerpt...

Spoiler
AN APPEAL TO THE YOUNG - PETER KROPOTKIN

It is to the young that I wish to address myself today. Let the old - I mean of course the old in heart and mind - lay the pamphlet down therefore without tiring their eyes in reading what will tell them nothing.

I assume that you are about eighteen or twenty years of age; that you have finished your apprenticeship or your studies; that you are just entering into life. I take it for granted that you have a mind free from the superstition which your teachers have sought to force upon you; that you don't fear the devil, and that you do not go to hear parsons and ministers rant. More, that you are not one of the fops, sad products of a society in decay, who display their well-cut trousers and their monkey faces in the park, and who even at their early age have only an insatiable longing for pleasure at any price...I assume on the contrary that you have a warm heart, and for this reason I talk to you.

A first question, I know, occurs to you - you have often asked yourself: "What am I going to be?" In fact when a man is young he understands that after having studied a trade or a science for several years - at the cost of society, mark - he has not done this in order that he should make use of his acquirements as instruments of plunder for his own gain, and he must be depraved indeed and utterly cankered by vice who has not dreamed that one day he would apply his intelligence, his abilities, his knowledge to help on the enfranchisement of those who today grovel in misery and in ignorance.

You are one of those who has had such a vision, are you not? Very well, let us see what you must do to make your dream a reality.

I do not know in what rank you were born. Perhaps, favored by fortune, you have turned your attention to the study of science; you are to be a doctor, a barrister, a man of letters, or a scientific man; a wide field opens up before you; you enter upon life with extensive knowledge, with a trained intelligence. Or, on the other hand, you are perhaps only an honest artisan whose knowledge of science is limited by the little that you have learnt at school; but you have had the advantage of learning at first hand what a life of exhausting toil is the lot of the worker of our time.

TO THE “INTELLECTUALS”
To Doctors

I stop at the first supposition, to return afterward to the second; I assume then that you have received a scientific education. Let us suppose you intend to be - a doctor. Tomorrow a man in corduroys will come to fetch you to see a sick woman. He will lead you into one of those alleys where the opposite neighbors can almost shake hands over the heads of the passersby; you ascend into a foul atmosphere by the flickering light of a little illtrimmed lamp; you climb two, three, four, five flights of filthy stairs, and in a dark, cold room you find the sick woman, lying on a pallet covered with dirty rags. Pale, livid children, shivering under their scanty garments, gaze at you with their big eyes wide open. The husband has worked all this life twelve or thirteen hours a day at, no matter what; now he has been out of work for three months. To be out of employ is not rare in his trade; it happens every year, periodically. But, formerly, when he was out of work his wife went out a charwoman - perhaps to wash your shirts - at the rate of fifteen pence a day; now she has been bedridden for two months, and misery glares upon the family in all its squalid hideousness.

What will you prescribe for the sick woman, doctor - you who have seen at a glance that the cause of her illness is general anemia, want of good food, lack of fresh air? Say, a good beefsteak every day? a little exercise in the country? a dry and well-ventilated bedroom? What irony! If she could have afforded it this would have been done long since without waiting for your advice.

If you have a good heart, a frank address, an honest face, the family will tell you many things. They will tell you that the woman on the other side of the partition, who coughs a cough which tears your heart, is a poor ironer; that a flight of stairs lower down all the children have the fever; that the washerwoman who occupies the ground floor will not live to see the spring; and that in the house next door things are still worse.

What will you say to all these sick people? Recommend them generous diet, change of air, less exhausting toil...You only wish you could but you daren't and you go out heartbroken, with a curse upon your lips.

The next day, as you still brood over the fate of the dwellers in this dog-hutch, your partner tells you that yesterday a footman came to fetch him, this time in a carriage. It was for the owner of a fine house, for a lady worn out with sleepless nights, who devotes all her life to dressing, visits, balls, and squabbles with a stupid husband. Your friend has prescribed for her a less preposterous habit of life, a less heating diet, walks in the fresh air, an even temperament, and, in order to make up in some measure for the want of useful work, a little gymnastic exercise in her bedroom.

The one is dying because she has never had enough food nor enough rest in her whole life; the other pines because she has never known what work is since she was born.

If you are one of those miserable natures who adapt themselves to anything, who at the sight of the most revolting spectacles console themselves with a gentle sigh and a glass of sherry, then you wilt gradually become used to these contrasts, and the nature of the beast favoring your endeavors, your sole idea will be to lift yourself into the ranks of the pleasure-seekers, so that you may never again find yourself among the wretched. But if you are a Man, if every sentiment is translated in your case into an action of the will; if, in you, the beast has not crushed the intelligent being, then you will return home one day saying to yourself, "No, it is unjust; this must not go on any longer. It is not enough to cure diseases; we must prevent them. A little good living and intellectual development would score off our lists half the patients and half the diseases. Throw physic to the dogs! Air, good diet, less crushing toil - that is how we must begin. Without this, the whole profession of a doctor is nothing but trickery and humbug."

That very day you will understand Socialism. You will wish to know it thoroughly, and if altruism is not a word devoid of significance for you, if you apply to the study of the social question the rigid induction of the natural philosopher, you will end by finding yourself in our ranks, and you will work as we work, to bring about the Social Revolution.

Spoiler
To Artists

Lastly, you, young artist, sculptor, painter, poet, musician, do you not observe that the sacred fire which inspired your predecessors is wanting in the men of today? that art is commonplace and mediocrity reigns supreme?

Could it be otherwise? The delight of having rediscovered the ancient world, of having bathed afresh in the springs of nature which created the masterpieces of the Renaissance no longer exists for the art of our time; the revolutionary ideal has left it cold until now, and, failing an ideal, our art fancies that it has found one in realism when it painfully photographs in colors the dewdrop on the leaf of a plant, imitates the muscles in the leg of a cow, or describes minutely in prose and verse the suffocating filth of a sewer, the boudoir of a whore of high degree.

"But, if this is so, what is to be done?" you say. If, I reply, the sacred fire that you say you possess is nothing better than a smoldering wick, then you will go on doing as you have done, and your art will speedily degenerate into the trade of decorator of tradesmen's shops, of a purveyor of librettos to third-rate operettas, and tales for Christmas Annuals - most of you are already running down that grade with a head of steam on...

But, if your heart really beats in unison with that of humanity, if like a true poet you have an ear for Life, then gazing out upon this sea of sorrow whose tide sweeps up around you, face to face with these people dying of hunger, in the presence of these corpses piled up in the mines, and these mutilated bodies lying in heaps on the barricades, looking on these long lines of exiles who are going to bury themselves in the snows of Siberia and in the marshes of tropical islands; in full view of this desperate battle which is being fought, amid the cries of pain from the conquered and the orgies of the victors, of heroism in conflict with cowardice, of noble determination face to face with contemptible cunning - you cannot remain neutral; you will come and take the side of the oppressed because you know that the beautiful, the sublime, the spirit of life itself are on the side of those who fight for light, for humanity, for justice!
« Last Edit: May 23, 2014, 12:41:26 am by slothpomba »

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thushan

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Re: Budget 2014
« Reply #153 on: May 23, 2014, 11:11:26 am »
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http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/stop-your-complaints-says-budget-architect-tony-shepherd-20140522-38rv2.html

Well, well, well.

Summary of article: "Oh stop whining you self-entitled dole bludgers! You should be thanking us for the fact that we give you anything at all, when if the natural order were to exist and everybody got what they deserved, you would be left with no food. Get over yourselves and live within your means."

This makes me sick.

Have a look at the comments. Makes me wonder how progressive youth turn into cynical adults.

On another note, just some food for thought. Where we say that "the poor are hit the hardest in this budget", a right winger would probably say that "you say it as if the poor were contributing to the tax system. they don't. the money they get, that's our money, our charity. we are well within our rights to not give them anything at all, but the fact that we give them anything, even though it's less than what it used to be, they should be grateful about that. like us giving tax money to them doesn't benefit us at all, and we worked for that money".

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charmanderp

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Re: Budget 2014
« Reply #154 on: May 23, 2014, 08:24:51 pm »
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http://www.thestringerdaily.com/future-australian-mother-feeds-children-warm-budget-surplus-for-dinner/

Quote
Local mother Carol Osborne served up a lovely, warm budget surplus to her three hungry children on a cold winter night in 2019. After rushing home from work, the single mum was relieved when she remembered the overflow of beautiful budget surplus she still had left in the fridge, and quickly threw together a scrumptious meal. Always concerned about giving her kids the right food, the divorced 39-year-old thanked her lucky stars that the budget surplus not only contained all the right nutrients her young kids needed to help them grow, but it also never sparked push-back from her children because they always relished the budget surplus’ delectable taste.

“I’ve just got to thank the Abbott government from 5 years ago for all this invaluable budget surplus I’ve got around the house,” gushed the empowered Mum, “the kids love it, I love it. It’s affected me in a very real, positive way this budget surplus.” And the uses for budget surplus do not apparently end there. Unemployed 27-year-old Dennis Tamworth also told reporters how priceless budget surplus had been in keeping his spirits up as he searched for work. “For the last four months it’s been pretty tough going as I haven’t had work, or any financial support from the Government,” Tamworth explained, “but at least I’ve got budget surplus to live off during this difficult time. I don’t know what I would have done if it weren’t for this budget surplus.”

At press time, scientists were allegedly optimistic that budget surplus could soon be utilised to combat the effects of global warming worldwide.
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Professor Polonsky

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Re: Budget 2014
« Reply #155 on: May 24, 2014, 03:19:50 pm »
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I'm hardly one to argue for keeping a balanced budget at all costs, but having a constant (structural) deficit is not a good thing. It's not about the end - an important one - rather about the means.

charmanderp

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Re: Budget 2014
« Reply #156 on: May 24, 2014, 04:24:40 pm »
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I'm hardly one to argue for keeping a balanced budget at all costs, but having a constant (structural) deficit is not a good thing. It's not about the end - an important one - rather about the means.
It's hardly a concern for us yet though, as this article points out (written by a Nobel economist): http://www.smh.com.au/comment/australia-you-dont-know-how-good-youve-got-it-20130901-2sytb.html

And yes this is the second time I've cited this article in this thread.
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chasej

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Re: Budget 2014
« Reply #157 on: May 24, 2014, 04:34:54 pm »
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It's hardly a concern for us yet though, as this article points out (written by a Nobel economist): http://www.smh.com.au/comment/australia-you-dont-know-how-good-youve-got-it-20130901-2sytb.html

And yes this is the second time I've cited this article in this thread.

Just because public debt isn't high Enough to be a concern yet, doesn't mean we shouldn't actively be trying to reduce it.
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Professor Polonsky

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Re: Budget 2014
« Reply #158 on: May 24, 2014, 04:53:26 pm »
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It's hardly a concern for us yet though, as this article points out (written by a Nobel economist): http://www.smh.com.au/comment/australia-you-dont-know-how-good-youve-got-it-20130901-2sytb.html

And yes this is the second time I've cited this article in this thread.
I'm going to have a go at predicting what the article says without reading it. Yes, our gross-debt-to-GDP ratio is one of the lowest in the world. (Or maybe they used net debt - the end result is about the same, except that countries that maintain their natural resource revenues as long-term assets would then be lower than us.) Yes, we have triple-A ratings from S&P, Moody's and Fitch.

That doesn't mean we should become complacent and start building large structural deficits, as the US did in the early 2000s. What happens then is that when revenues start declining, a feature of the bust part of the 'boom-and-bust' cycle (see: GFC), you start having even higher deficits. Things then become a lot trickier, and you need to implement austerity measures instead of stimulating the economy (see: most of Europe).

I'm not saying we need to reach zero net debt, or even necessarily zero deficit (a surplus) in the medium-term. But right now, the global economy is recovering, and it's time to start thinking about reducing our deficits. This is something the previous Labor government did do, and deficits were projected to shrink. Most of the further spending cuts by the Liberal government have an ideological rationale, rather than an economic one.

tl;dr: The budget is shit, but reducing deficits is a legitimate and important goal. When the economy is doing well, you want surpluses or low deficits.

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Re: Budget 2014
« Reply #159 on: May 24, 2014, 05:45:14 pm »
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Some of the comments I have heard recently have been laughable.

"Parents should start saving now to prevent their children from suffering a crippling HECs debt".

LMFAO. Ok. Sure, really expensive degrees (Med, Law, eng, etc.) might cost an arm and a leg but it's expected that your future salary will easily pay it off (and if it doesn't, why is this the case? Too many graduates being pumped out?) Even other degrees aren't that bad when you consider how little is deducted from your wage week by week. Now if you want to do a generic degree that doesn't lead to employment then that isn't the taxpayers problem; it's yours.

Furthermore, these student protesters should be angry at the Universities, not Pyne. In theory, shouldn't deregulation allow some universities to offer affordable and competitive costs? But oh no...now they will ALL charge the maximum. While still making you pay for parking, printing, etc. Is this Pyne's fault? Or greedy VCs who pocket FAT salaries every year?

So the incredible house prices in Melbourne aren't crippling? I really wish one of these political parties had the balls to scrap rorts such as negative gearing.
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Re: Budget 2014
« Reply #160 on: May 24, 2014, 06:02:41 pm »
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Furthermore, these student protesters should be angry at the Universities, not Pyne. In theory, shouldn't deregulation allow some universities to offer affordable and competitive costs? But oh no...now they will ALL charge the maximum. While still making you pay for parking, printing, etc. Is this Pyne's fault? Or greedy VCs who pocket FAT salaries every year?
The reason Go8 universities have been pushing for deregulation is two-fold.

First, government funding for universities is insufficient. In many faculties, they actually lose money on every domestic student that they enrol; a loss that they have to recoup by enrolling international students. And as a result of the efficiency dividend (yes, this is a Labor policy) I would not be surprised if they started laying off professional staff.

Second, Go8 universities want to differentiate themselves from the rest of the pack by becoming Americanized research-intensive elite universities. Part of that is the ability to charge exorbitant fees.

It is true that the second part can be partly blamed on the ambitions of VCs and their fellow bureaucrats, but the first is clearly the Commonwealth's fault. Even in regards to that though, the Commonwealth is the one that ultimately sets the policy - it should be able to tell the Go8 VCs no, as Labor did. (They've been pushing for dereg for about four years now.)

"Parents should start saving now to prevent their children from suffering a crippling HECs debt".

LMFAO. Ok. Sure, really expensive degrees (Med, Law, eng, etc.) might cost an arm and a leg but it's expected that your future salary will easily pay it off (and if it doesn't, why is this the case? Too many graduates being pumped out?) Even other degrees aren't that bad when you consider how little is deducted from your wage week by week. Now if you want to do a generic degree that doesn't lead to employment then that isn't the taxpayers problem; it's yours.
The issue isn't whether you go into a job that pays enough to repay the loan. The repayment rate is proportional to your income anyway, and will remain the same (with only a slight modification) after these reforms.

The issue is the duration of the loan - how long it will take to pay it back. Instead of paying it through your 20s and early 30s - mostly before you have to start providing for kids, and your expenses go up - you are going to have to continue paying that 7% or so of your wage for another 10-20 years. Once you hit your 30s and, despite earning a decent (say $100,000 in today's money) wage, it will be a serious burden to still have a HECS loan to repay once you add a mortgage, kids etc into the equation.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2014, 06:07:27 pm by Polonomial »

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Re: Budget 2014
« Reply #161 on: May 24, 2014, 06:38:33 pm »
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ok, that's not actually an argument about big businesses that i thought it was but it's pretty tight

Just curious, what did you think his argument was going to be?
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charmanderp

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Re: Budget 2014
« Reply #162 on: May 24, 2014, 09:07:11 pm »
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Just because public debt isn't high Enough to be a concern yet, doesn't mean we shouldn't actively be trying to reduce it.
Well obviously, but we're also not at a state where the government can be justifying vicious, unjust cuts to public spending on the back of a 'debt crisis' because that crisis is completely artificial.

Most of the further spending cuts by the Liberal government have an ideological rationale, rather than an economic one.
This essentially is my problem with the budget. Even if we should be doing what we can to reduce our debt that's not what the government is doing, they're just using it as an excuse to make cuts that justify their social ideologies.
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Re: Budget 2014
« Reply #163 on: May 24, 2014, 09:51:50 pm »
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Even if we should be doing what we can to reduce our debt that's not what the government is doing, they're just using it as an excuse to make cuts that justify their social ideologies.

The LNP and the Labour parties just have different philosophies about how to make a country strong. The tireless suggestion that Tony and Smokin' Joe are only interested in looking after their "mates" in the big end of town is utter nonsense. It's just that they believe that the country is best run via stronger businesses which then create employment and lifts everyone up.
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Re: Budget 2014
« Reply #164 on: May 24, 2014, 10:33:49 pm »
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The LNP and the Labour parties just have different philosophies about how to make a country strong. The tireless suggestion that Tony and Smokin' Joe are only interested in looking after their "mates" in the big end of town is utter nonsense. It's just that they believe that the country is best run via stronger businesses which then create employment and lifts everyone up.
You see - the businesses that won't be hurt as much by the budget are those that are at the "big end of town"- eg .lowering company tax, doing nothing about tax avoidance such as negative gearing, injecting large subsidies to the mining sector while we pay more for petrol, disproportional levy on the rich, giving $50,000 to even the richest 1%  through the Paid Parental Leave Scheme etc. Oh I have to mention, my personal favourite, spending $240 million on religious chaplains in schools (wtf?). So yes, the Coalition may not be explicitly creating greater inequalities but through inaction, they are implicitly creating less opportunities for those on low incomes EVEN when they are employed.

Businesses do create employment and drive the economy; but remember the sector that allows these businesses to function: real people. If Abbott thinks his neoliberalist, "leave it all to the free market" ideology is going to work.... well there's going to be a lot of people left behind.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2014, 10:38:32 pm by Zezima. »