Melbourne Uni removing ENTER?!!

[IntoTheNewWorld]

As for the fact that the guy wo got 40+ in private school dropping out, it's simply because he wasn't spoon fed as he was in year 12. Happens all the time.

Explain plz, how was he spoon fed? Did he put no effort into VCE and was just "spoon fed" to 40+?

Are you serious?

Also, I didn't say he put NO effort.

I merely presumed being "spoonfed", whatever that means, does not require effort

[Toothpaste]

As for the fact that the guy wo got 40+ in private school dropping out, it's simply because he wasn't spoon fed as he was in year 12. Happens all the time.

Explain plz, how was he spoon fed? Did he put no effort into VCE and was just "spoon fed" to 40+?

There's a lot of self-directed learning in university. Even though that anecdote may not be true for everyone, it's a classic case of being told what to do and then being overwhelmed by a whole different process of learning since you'd have no one to give you the close guidance you once experienced. Labelling is usually inaccurate, and I believe that it's not always the "private school kids" that this happens to (transition isn't necessarily an easy thing for anyone involved). There would be plenty of people struggling who were from state schools, but you often hear about independent school students apparently doing worse than their government school peers in university just because it's somewhat out of the norm for people to bear. It's the "omg didn't the 20K in fees help them?" factor that makes it so jaw dropping upon realisation.

It may or may not be a common tale/claim. There may be statistics/solid evidence/research to support this but I haven't seen them.

[ZachCharge]

Hmm...I wonder how many letters of self recommendation would be sent consisting of "all I ever wanted to do is help ppl since I a little babby and I lyk moniesss" they would get for the Bachelor of Biomedicine...

[doboman]

As for the fact that the guy wo got 40+ in private school dropping out, it's simply because he wasn't spoon fed as he was in year 12. Happens all the time.

Explain plz, how was he spoon fed? Did he put no effort into VCE and was just "spoon fed" to 40+?

Simply; University study is extremely self-directed. Generally, those who come from Private Schools are more likely to be closely guarded (in terms of their academic life) by their teachers- and the school as a whole. Homework is checked; bad marks are met with some kind of punnishment or threat ect ect. Whereas Public Schools (and please somebody correct me if I'm wrong, because i left my public school at the end of year 9), there isn't much- if any- guidance from teachers to the cohort as a whole. Sure there will be some students who say "i stayed back after school and got help" but holistically, the guidance and reinforcement (be that positve or negative) in terms of acadmic marks isn't there. It's the "fail and it's your fault attitude" [in contrast to the private school "fail and we'll kick you out of our school b/c you're tarnishing our brand]. Hence the conclusion- those from private schools are shocked when they go to Uni and have to self-direct their learning. In contrast, public school kids are so used to the fact that they self-learn things so the transition isn't as bad.

If you can't be stuffed reading that...the correlation is:
Private Schools: Guide their students.
Public Schools: Let their students be. Self taught learning.
University: Self taught learning.

[xXNovaxX]

^^ @doboman ur right =). I have only ever seen at most aybe 2 people who stay behind class to ask for help at a public school, however it is those who do this, and do the h/w etc who do well. My teacher told me private school people tend to GET INTO UNI, no doubt there, but that's because many of them were orignally from public schools and got offered places into the private. Prviate school people teacher also said tend to be spoon fed a lot of the work etc, thus they do well in SACS and exams. But when it comes to uni a lecturer once said many private school students are overhelmed at the demand, and the homework, and the stuff they need to do THEMSELVES, whereas public school students hav already gone through  a lot of it. 

[ninwa]

The VCE system is as corrupt as. What the year 12 students of this year as with every other year is that the private schools scoop up a HEAP of the 40's as the students at private schools can invest the money on intense courses to get extra information, tutors, etc. I was someone who could not afford TSFX or a tutor

Please don't generalise like that. I went to a private school and I couldn't afford a tutor or TSFX. My parents had to cut back for months to be able to pay for MedEntry.

None of the "scholars" (people who get 98+ in each year level) in my graduating class had tutors (I know this for a fact). We got our scores through consistent hard work. As for "spoon-feeding", that is a phenomenon by no means limited to private schools. It happens everywhere. That's why for so many students the transition to uni is difficult.

The only real advantage I can see is that private schools can afford to purchase piles and piles of practice exam papers. Don't diminish the value of our achievements like that.

[ninwa]

[in contrast to the private school "fail and we'll kick you out of our school b/c you're tarnishing our brand].

That appears to be a mere myth brought about by an exaggeration of the very small number of cases where this actually happens. Most private schools would rather students stayed in the school, because of the massive school fees their parents pay.

[xXNovaxX]

@ Ninwa, u provided interesting points, i never thought of it like that. Your explanation to how one advantage of the fees etc is of private schools being able to get tonnes of practice exams, thats true. I also don't think tutors are always responsible for people doing well. In many instances people have tutors and barely manage a 30. Sometimes though they are helpful, especially in mathematics, and possibly english- subejcts which tend to need a lot more 1 on 1 personal attention,

[AppleXY]

In many instances people have tutors and barely manage a 30.

Guilty as charged.

[doboman]

[in contrast to the private school "fail and we'll kick you out of our school b/c you're tarnishing our brand].

That appears to be a mere myth brought about by an exaggeration of the very small number of cases where this actually happens. Most private schools would rather students stayed in the school, because of the massive school fees their parents pay.

See, in my experience, this always happened. The school never gave a crap about losing "the massive school fees", simply because there are many other students who'd take their place if it was opened up. We can agree to disagree about this point, but it's such a small part of the argument that it doesnt matter. My overall contention is that generally, kids from public schools are more likely to take part in independant studies.

Also, and I must stress that i'm not having a go at you here,  but do you really think the major 'advantage' of private schools is the quantity of practice exams they provide? Surely the practice exams aren't worth the extra $30K?! And finally, I just want to add that i'm not simply talking about year 12 here. I'm talking about the idea that self-directed learning is drilled into public schoolers from year 9 or so.

[ninwa]

Well, we also have some excellent teachers, though I'm not sure whether that is a consequence of being a private school (do they get paid more?). They were excellent because they were incredibly knowledgeable in their areas, and genuinely loved teaching. Not because they "spoonfed" us.

If you want to use personal anecdotes as evidence ... well, not a single one of the 200 or so people I went to high school with and with whom I still have some contact have yet dropped out of university. Many of them have HD and D averages. The only people I know who have dropped out of law attended public schools. Therefore, I proclaim that public schoolers have no independent learning skills. Can you see the logical fallacies in that conclusion, and therefore in your own anecdote-based generalisations?

The "extra $30k" includes things like building fancy new concert halls with stages the size of the State Opera House, chapels, overseas trips, overpriced uniforms, free music lessons and the like. It is not the school fees which "buy the ENTER". It is the parents, who are wealthy enough to pay those fees, who therefore also have the funds to pay for extra tutors, TSFX, etc.

There are also rich parents who choose to send their children to public schools and spend the money on expensive tutors instead. Aren't they "buying" an ENTER too? Should we just ban all tutors and tutoring companies in the interests of a truly level playing field?

If you are born into a family which is not as financially well off, that is the deck you have been dealt in life. Stop whinging about it and make the best of what you have. And recognise that you don't need a personal tutor to do well. There are so many members on this site who are living proof of that.

[doboman]

They were excellent because they were incredibly knowledgeable in their areas, and genuinely loved teaching. Not because they "spoonfed" us.

So YOU believe that generally, kids from private schools have the same educational opportunities as those from public schools? Really?

If you want to use personal anecdotes as evidence ... well, not a single one of the 200 or so people I went to high school with and with whom I still have some contact have yet dropped out of university. Many of them have HD and D averages. The only people I know who have dropped out of law attended public schools. Therefore, I proclaim that public schoolers have no independent learning skills. Can you see the logical fallacies in that conclusion, and therefore in your own anecdote-based generalisations?

You'll notice that I dismissed that argument [due to it being an extremely small part of my contention] as frivolous- so no need going there.

The "extra $30k" includes things like building fancy new concert halls with stages the size of the State Opera House, chapels, overseas trips, overpriced uniforms, free music lessons and the like. It is not the school fees which "buy the ENTER".

Nice to know that parents think "fancy concert halls", "chapels", "overseas trips", "overpriced uniforms" and "FREE (yeh, that's what it is) music lessons" are worth $30K.

There are also rich parents who choose to send their children to public schools and spend the money on expensive tutors instead. Aren't they "buying" an ENTER too? Should we just ban all tutors and tutoring companies in the interests of a truly level playing field?

Stop being silly. I never mentioned that there needs to be "a truly level playing field". I said that public school students are generally more inclined to be self taught. You can bring up the fact that there are some who go tutoring, but the majority of them dont.

If you are born into a family which is not as financially well off, that is the deck you have been dealt in life. Stop whinging about it and make the best of what you have. And recognise that you don't need a personal tutor to do well. There are so many members on this site who are living proof of that.

Is it me; or have you completely gone off topic. Topic is: Private school students are more likely to adapt quicker at university because they are used to the whole "self learning". If anything, this last bit is proving my point. I never said you need a tutor to do well. I just said that those who are able to get into the same course [and ENTER] without a tutor; in comparison to those who were tutored throughout their schooling life are more likely to be inclined towards self learning. And the conclusion is that when they enter uni; they won't be as daunted by the aspect of self learning


Ps; take a read of this.

State school students 'do better at uni'

Students from public schools do better at university than those from private schools, despite evidence that private school students achieve higher results in the final year of school, according to fresh research.

Report author Ian Dobson from Monash's Centre for Population and Urban Research says the study looked at the results of more than 12,000 students.

"The main findings were that students from independent schools and selective government schools got the highest scores in year 12 but their lower-scoring colleagues from non-selective, standard government schools caught up and went ahead of them in university," he said.

Mr Dobson says the findings probably reflect the greater resources available at private schools.

"Students that attend government schools have got used to a bit of relative rough and tumble and they're better able to cope when left to their own devices a little more at university," he said.

He added: "Students in the government sector schools really learn survival ... to a certain extent – you wouldn't want to overblow any of this because there's a great range within the government sector schools – whereas perhaps independent schools were able to coach less-able students to a relative over-achievement in year 12."

Mr Dobson says governments should pay attention to the findings.

"I hope that they try and perceive it with an open mind, rather than, I actually expect some people will try and find all sorts of reasons to debunk it," he said. "[Our research] enumerates what has happened and what happens consistently.

"It ought to be fed into the policy arena so that we can actually improve things such as university selection to get more students from low socio-economic status areas, because these people are still underrepresented and have been for many, many years going back to the 1950s."

However, Victoria's independent schools peak body says the new research is flawed.

Michelle Green, who heads the Association of Independent Schools of Victoria, says the research should look beyond the first year of results and take in the demands on private school students.

"Many of our students have a very strong network of extra-curricular activities which we developed in the schools and they are exploring those in their first year of uni as many of us did," she said.

"So I think the research is very selective and I think parents and others need to look behind the results and not be concerned by them."

[Eriny]

You can't be 'spoonfed' understanding. You either understand it or you don't. What does 'spoonfeed' even mean, anyway? Telling students how to get good marks? Um.. that's the job of a teacher.

What's more, public schools are not crazy shitholes, and I'm sick of that generalisation. I went to public school and got 98+. There was no 'luck' in it, just hard work. Without hard work (or some nepotism, I suppose), in the long term it's not going to matter what school you went to because you'll fail. People just say 'I went to a crap school and therefore got a crap ENTER (and later on, life)' as a cop-out and an excuse not to work.

[doboman]

What's more, public schools are not crazy shitholes, and I'm sick of that generalisation. I went to public school and got 98+.

There are heaps of people who went to a public school and did well in VCE. And am i missing something? Who said public schools are crazy shitholes?

[xXNovaxX]

spoon fed. noun.vb. greek word JOKES. well, spoonfed basically means= students being given all the information needed for SACS and exams, being provided hints/details/answers for the sacs. I think it is also accused that pplz who are spoonfed have work done for them. Just my interpretation. They are given info JUST FOR EXAMS, that is, others are given extra info which isn;t exactly useful for exams, and isn't just needed for exams, thus disadvantaging them. And a lot of this interpreation isn't MY BELIEF, just what msot people define it as.