Methods or further?

[yakattack]

Given my dwindling scores and growing confusion of the 1/2 methods coursework, I have been considering picking up further maths at the start of next term. I have been struggling increasingly with the content and, as you could guess, my marks have reflected this (I have gone from 90% upwards in year 10 to 40-60% last year)... I don't need methods as a prerequisite for any of the university courses I am considering, but, while unlikely, this may change and, considering that I want to try and leave my options open, I feel like dropping methods would be unwise in this respect. While this is important to think about, I also want to maximise my chances of gaining the best ATAR I can, which leads me to believe that further, given the fact that it is 'easier' than methods, would make it more likely for me to do better (as well as feel better) in the subject than I would if I was doing methods, as well as leaving me more time to focus on other subjects that are prerequisites for what I want to do following high school. Despite this, I have no idea how I would do in further considering I haven't done general maths, and whether this increase in study time for my other subjects is worth it if I'm going to get a score that scales down to what methods would scale up to without cutting off any potential career options. I've had a look at the further SD though, and from what I can see it could be manageable, but I thought it would be great if I could get the opinion of people who have done both courses (as well as anyone else who could help - you're all appreciated!) because at the moment I have no idea!

[Swagadaktal]

I would do Further if methods isn't a pre-req.
If i was in your position I'd do both because I really enjoyed Methods, but since you're choosing one I'd go further as it's easier, like I spent 1/5 or 1/6 of the time I spent on methods and I still did well

[babushka818]

Agree with swagadaktal. I took methods last year and am completing spesh and further this year. If methods isn't a prereq, go with further. I don't think taking methods for a scaling benefit is a good idea; given you were a strong student in year 10, you could do pretty well in further, better than you'd do even with scaling in methods. Think about it; scraping a 25 in methods that scales to a 29, or a 40 in further that scales to 38/39? You'll get more of an ATAR benefit if you take subjects you're good at compared to subjects that scale.

In terms of content, further is a pretty different ball game to methods. However I'm jumping straight into further without general. It's a bit of a struggle at first because all the data stuff we're doing right now I haven't seen in four years and everyone else has done only a month ago. But the concepts in further are not difficult to grasp; you should be able to pick it up without much issue.
*Hope you don't mind me asking, but what are you considering doing after school and what are your other subjects? Can't remember if it's in your sig 

I think you'll also need less time for further than methods. I picked up further because all my classes are hard and intense and I wanted a relaxing and easier class just to have some chilled out time at school. You'd go to methods class every day hating it, being depressed, losing motivation and possibly not working hard and doing as well as you'd like. In further, if it's more your style of maths (statistics, geometry and business maths as opposed to calculus and functions) then you'll be happier doing it and it will encourage you more to work for the class and you'll do better faster. Further is deemed easier; of course you have to work still, but you could understand nothing in methods and pore over a textbook for three hours every night to get it, but in further, the individual concepts take little effort to understand, so you could get it in class, reinforce it with some exercises and be done.

In the end it is your decision. Methods is a subject you can do well in with hard work and understanding so if you're willing to go through with that, go for it! Further isn't for everyone though. Some people ace spesh and don't get a 40 in further and that's okay. They're all different skill sets. I'd say that further, being easier, is less forgiving than methods, so if you're thorough in your working you can do pretty well. But again, it depends what path you want to take, hence why I asked about your choice for post-school education. Best of luck with your decision, but know that with hard work, you can do well in anything

Also want to say that your mental health comes before anything. If methods stresses you out to extreme extents then drop it, it's not worth compromising your health for anything. 

[Peanut Butter]

My school heavily promotes methods. They believe that if you're capable, you should definitely continue it because it has so many benefits (not just scaling, but also prerequisite for many courses at uni).

Considering your year 10 marks, I feel like (just making an assumption here) that you are totally capable of doing incredibly well in methods (maybe if you just put a little more time in or change up your study habits). While methods is hard, the content is a lot more interesting than further - and as I mentioned above, it has a lot of benefits. If I was you (and obviously had strong mathematical skills, given year 10) I would continue methods. (Lots of people at my school have the same methods marks as you now, and my careers advisor is encouraging them to continue methods...there must be a reason )

I completed further last year (without general) and I can tell you that you will pick it up easily Further does have a much smaller work load, however it is highly competitive and getting a high study score is pretty tough (especially in year 12 when you have 5 other subjects to balance).

When I look at your methods marks (40-60%) I see that this would be about average at my school. Considering that the median study score is 30, if you continue on this wavelength you would probably get a 30 methods (which scales to about 34). However if you reflect on year 11 and think about what went wrong/how you can improve your methods studying, you could probably bump your raw score to at least a 35 (scaled to 40).

These are just my thoughts again, it depends solely on how much work you are willing to put in. I feel like with a little hard work you could do well in methods, but if you're not willing to do so then further is probably better for you

[Pawnpusher]

Given my dwindling scores and growing confusion of the 1/2 methods coursework, I have been considering picking up further maths at the start of next term. I have been struggling increasingly with the content and, as you could guess, my marks have reflected this (I have gone from 90% upwards in year 10 to 40-60% last year)... I don't need methods as a prerequisite for any of the university courses I am considering, but, while unlikely, this may change and, considering that I want to try and leave my options open, I feel like dropping methods would be unwise in this respect. While this is important to think about, I also want to maximise my chances of gaining the best ATAR I can, which leads me to believe that further, given the fact that it is 'easier' than methods, would make it more likely for me to do better (as well as feel better) in the subject than I would if I was doing methods, as well as leaving me more time to focus on other subjects that are prerequisites for what I want to do following high school. Despite this, I have no idea how I would do in further considering I haven't done general maths, and whether this increase in study time for my other subjects is worth it if I'm going to get a score that scales down to what methods would scale up to without cutting off any potential career options. I've had a look at the further SD though, and from what I can see it could be manageable, but I thought it would be great if I could get the opinion of people who have done both courses (as well as anyone else who could help - you're all appreciated!) because at the moment I have no idea!

This is my Methods score in year 10:
Topic Tests (Factorisation, Linear Algebra, Trigonometry): D
Exam: F

Teacher's comment- _ is capable of doing Methods but needs to double his efforts.

Year 11 Further:
Topic Tests: C
Exam: D+

Obviously i did not give a shit.

Year 12 Further
I put in effort to say the least.
A+ A+ A+ = 43

Everyone is good when they place effort. I believe you can do it.

[yakattack]

Teacher's comment- _ is capable of doing Methods but needs to double his efforts.

Pretty much exactly what my methods teacher said when I talked to him about my situation (although the only reason he gave me for persevering with methods is that it'll be beneficial in terms of scaling )! I feel that if I work hard enough that I could do (relatively) well in methods (as Peanut Butter said), but as someone who wants to get into either Arts at Melbourne or Arts/Law at Monash (law is what I want to do after school babushka818 ) the whole maths/science stream isn't really a priority, and, as I see it now, the only benefit of doing methods over further is the fact that it'll keep my options open to other degrees (which I really have no interest in)... I just don't know if that extra freedom is worth the extra time when I could be focussing on other subjects

[Swagadaktal]

I think it's important to keep in mind that the year 10 mathematics course is designed to lead onto Further mathematics, not methods. If you did well in year 10 maths you'll definitely do well in Further.
Year 10 mathematics is not a reflection of methods.

In the end of the day, both subjects will require a lot of effort. But if you want, say like a 40 or 45 you will spend significantly less time studying for Further than studying for methods. Further has a small amount of content, and theres a bound reference (just incase you cbf studying, legit you can take a whole test off of it)

In the end of the day, both subjects = studying

[keltingmeith]

Do Further. In general, people find it's a lot less effort, they don't need as much time, and it's not like you'd use methods anyway. Particularly if you want to do law, scoring high should be at the top of your priorities, not whether a particular subject would be "good" to do.

I think it's important to keep in mind that the year 10 mathematics course is designed to lead onto Further mathematics, not methods. If you did well in year 10 maths you'll definitely do well in Further.
Year 10 mathematics is not a reflection of methods.

My school begs to differ, but okay.

[Pawnpusher]

Pretty much exactly what my methods teacher said when I talked to him about my situation (although the only reason he gave me for persevering with methods is that it'll be beneficial in terms of scaling )! I feel that if I work hard enough that I could do (relatively) well in methods (as Peanut Butter said), but as someone who wants to get into either Arts at Melbourne or Arts/Law at Monash (law is what I want to do after school babushka818 ) the whole maths/science stream isn't really a priority, and, as I see it now, the only benefit of doing methods over further is the fact that it'll keep my options open to other degrees (which I really have no interest in)... I just don't know if that extra freedom is worth the extra time when I could be focussing on other subjects

The scaling is beneficial. At this time point you are in a very good position, with a 47 and the fact that you care about how you will do!

You have to realize here that your aim is to get a 98 into Law/Arts at Monash. Scaling for Methods will help with that, and Further is extremely competitive, and does scale down. A 35 in Methods will scale to around 39-40, while a 40 in Further  (93%+ sacs and a 37/40 and 53/60) will scale to 38.

There is also other factors, like what other subjects are you doing? Literature i believe is harder to score well than English. With that being said i scored A B+ A and ended with a 33. I focused too much on other subjects, and quite literally that let me down. Is Methods going to weigh you down and take time of other subjects? If you are confident with maths you can score well. I have friends who learnt the entire Further content in a couple of weeks time before year 12. They did about 3 practice exams a week, which they allocated time for and ended with high 40s.

Another thing to keep in mind is that do you necessarily want to do a maths subject? Doing Humanities subjects gives your aggregates, in other words 'subject bonuses' that will figuratively boost your ATAR in Monash's view. Getting a 40 across a wide range of humanity subjects is 1 point. Getting a 45+ in any English is 2 points. Investing time in this could be another option. If you end up with a 45 in Lit and a 40 in Philosophy, then it only requires you only a 95 atar to have a potential position in Law in the future years.

If i could go back and change things in my VCE years i would change alot of things, i would go back and work hard for methods. Just keep an open mind and remember that it is achievable to score high in any subject if you are willing to work hard

[yakattack]

You have to realize here that your aim is to get a 98 into Law/Arts at Monash. Scaling for Methods will help with that, and Further is extremely competitive, and does scale down. A 35 in Methods will scale to around 39-40, while a 40 in Further  (93%+ sacs and a 37/40 and 53/60) will scale to 38.

Also, because my school is underrepresented at Monash, I'm eligible for the Monash guarantee (bringing the required ATAR for Law down to 94)...

There is also other factors, like what other subjects are you doing? Literature i believe is harder to score well than English. With that being said i scored A B+ A and ended with a 33. I focused too much on other subjects, and quite literally that let me down.

For this very reason I feel as if further would be the way to go - I really want to invest my time sufficiently across all my subjects, and I feel as if this would be harder considering the demand of methods (not to say I wouldn't work hard in further, it would just take less time to get my head around concepts from what I've heard)

Another thing to keep in mind is that do you necessarily want to do a maths subject? Doing Humanities subjects gives your aggregates, in other words 'subject bonuses' that will figuratively boost your ATAR in Monash's view. Getting a 40 across a wide range of humanity subjects is 1 point. Getting a 45+ in any English is 2 points. Investing time in this could be another option. If you end up with a 45 in Lit and a 40 in Philosophy, then it only requires you only a 95 atar to have a potential position in Law in the future years.

Where can I find more information on this? I've never heard of this before...
Thanks so much for your help

[Pawnpusher]

Also, because my school is underrepresented at Monash, I'm eligible for the Monash guarantee (bringing the required ATAR for Law down to 94)...

For this very reason I feel as if further would be the way to go - I really want to invest my time sufficiently across all my subjects, and I feel as if this would be harder considering the demand of methods (not to say I wouldn't work hard in further, it would just take less time to get my head around concepts from what I've heard)

Where can I find more information on this? I've never heard of this before...
Thanks so much for your help

Awesome!!! You are in a great position then. If you only need 94 then you are one step closer. At this being said Further is starting to be good here. A difference between 94 and 98.. meh you dont need the scale so much now. Very doable

As for the information about subject bonuses, I got them from the course search in VTAC courses.

Ill quote here for you and provide the link as well for you.


Prerequisites For Monash Law
Y12: Units 3 and 4: a study score of at least 35 in English (EAL) or at least 30 in English other than EAL.
NY12: As for Year 12 (or Year 12 equivalent)
Additional considerations:
SEAS : Applicants who have experienced educational disadvantage are encouraged to submit a SEAS application.
Subject Bonus : A study score of 45 in any English equals 2 aggregate points per study. A study score of 40 in any English equals 1 aggregate point per study. A study score of 40 in Classical Studies, Economics, Geography, any History, Legal Studies, Philosophy, Australian Politics, Global Politics or Psychology equals 1 aggregate point per study. Overall maximum of 5 points

Link= http://delta.vtac.edu.au/CourseSearch/searchguide.htm
Search for law and find law/arts at Monash. All the info will be provided for you.

[babushka818]

I feel that if I work hard enough that I could do (relatively) well in methods (as Peanut Butter said), but as someone who wants to get into either Arts at Melbourne or Arts/Law at Monash (law is what I want to do after school babushka818 ) the whole maths/science stream isn't really a priority, and, as I see it now, the only benefit of doing methods over further is the fact that it'll keep my options open to other degrees (which I really have no interest in)... I just don't know if that extra freedom is worth the extra time when I could be focussing on other subjects

Look in all honesty, I don't think its worth your time doing methods. It's a lot of hard work to get the results you'd want for a high ATAR. You're looking at law; this doesn't require extensive mathematical background. Sure the scaling is better than further. Many may disagree with me here, but I think it's overstating it to suggest that the same workload and effort could get you a 35 in methods and a 40 in further. If I put the same amount of effort into further this year as I put into methods last year.. Well I could get a 40 I further but only got 33 in methods. Even including scaling as a factor, it's more beneficial for you to take further because I think you know you can do better in it; I think you're more motivated to work hard for further than for methods. And if you put in the effort, you can get a better result in further than you would in methods, which will benefit your ATAR, your stress, your motivation, your other subjects and your ability.

I am fairly intrigued in Swagadaktal's point about year 10 maths relating directly to further. I have no experience in this being the case for me. However, I was an accelerated mathematics student all through high school. In year 10, the expected pathway for accelerated maths is methods, so our year 9 accelerated course essentially focused in fundamentals for methods. I don't know what the focus is in other schools though. In which case it's worth asking you; since you mentioned reading further's study design and you've done methods 1/2, do you feel year 10 maths in your school was more inclined to methods or further? If further (and you did really well in year 10!), I strongly recommend taking that path; you'll be a lot more comfortable. If methods, then you would seem to have a strong foundation for it and working hard could just get you some awesome results.

If you're not seriously considering a maths/science field, it's probably not worth it. From your experience, I'd say your only benefit might be the fallback of scaling. It really doesn't outweigh the personal and academic benefits to picking up further. I also don't think methods will directly benefit any of your other subjects, but then again, further probably won't either. In which case, I think the thing to consider with your other subjects is time. I had a friend who took further, methods and specialist in year 12 last year. She worked in class for further and did nothing outside, but pulled a 40+ result. The class doesn't require you to spend hours outside studying concepts, so you can better direct that time to your other subjects to get good results across the board as opposed to working for methods, neglecting your other subjects and not reaching your maximum potential in other subjects. You did well in year 10; you're not a poor maths student. So methods might not be your ball game; work for something that is, and you'll likely do much better and be happier doing it.

Again completely your decision. If you want to work for methods, go for it. With dedication and hard work you can achieve anything you set your mind to best of luck.

[yakattack]

In which case it's worth asking you; since you mentioned reading further's study design and you've done methods 1/2, do you feel year 10 maths in your school was more inclined to methods or further?

From what I can remember we sort of did a bit of both, but focused more on the further side of things; matrices, business maths and methods of displaying data were all covered, but we went into linear and basic quadratic equations and trig too, which of course are expanded on in methods. My class ended up quite varied ability-wise, so I think they were trying to cater to both streams, but looking back on it I found I got my head around the further side of things a bit more than the basic methods stuff, which perhaps is as good of an indication as any as to what maths I should do...

[babushka818]

From what I can remember we sort of did a bit of both, but focused more on the further side of things; matrices, business maths and methods of displaying data were all covered, but we went into linear and basic quadratic equations and trig too, which of course are expanded on in methods. My class ended up quite varied ability-wise, so I think they were trying to cater to both streams, but looking back on it I found I got my head around the further side of things a bit more than the basic methods stuff, which perhaps is as good of an indication as any as to what maths I should do...

That's good that you covered aspects of both. I remember we did like all functions, some probability, trig, algebra, all methods stuff. We didn't even look at matrices or business maths.
I'm sure trig is part of further too though and a basic knowledge of functions wouldn't hurt either for further. Despite you getting more of the further stuff, I think it's important for you to recognize that you gave methods a go. Perhaps it wasn't for you, and I think pushing something to make it work for so long might dampen your spirits. I was a 95+ student in methods 1/2 and dropped to not a mark over 80 in 3/4, so I personally don't think it gets easier, but many here would disagree with me. It really depends on you. Above all, you don't want to take a subject that you think you'll work hard in, then give up if you find it too difficult. You sound more at ease with further and I believe that will give you the stamina to stick it out and work til the end to pull some great marks.

I want to give you some anecdotes to just indicate how others have gone facing similar issues.
-I know some weaker students in my year who took methods for prereqs or just in case and ended up with marks they weren't happy with, thus wanting to repeat or pick up further the next year.
-Other people take methods, don't do as well as they want and miss out on their course for not getting the ATAR requirement that they definitely could have met having taken subjects more suited to them (eg further over methods)
-There were two students in my year 9 accelerated class who's vce maths recommendations got swapped. (Strong student put in further, weak student in methods). The weaker student did methods 1/2 in year 10 then dropped it in year 11 and picked up general maths. The strong student though decided to continue with further in year 11 and pick up methods 1/2 as well. He pulled awesome results in further.
-A girl in my methods class was recommended methods for year 11 and took it despite not being too strong and apprehensive about taking it. Three weeks in and she was failing sacs, getting anxious, stressing out. She dropped methods and picked up further and she said it was the best thing she could have done for herself.

Remember that it's okay to drop subjects if they're not your taste. It's important to consider your ability and interests before making your decision. You want law; what happens if you take methods, hate it halfway through the year and give up and only get a 20 and you miss your ATAR req? I don't want to scare you or have you believe that will definitely happen. In fact it might happen in further too. You've just got to establish what you are more confident with and more prepared to go through with. It's a long year and you don't want to have a stack of regrets at the end of it. I suggest discussing your possible courses of action and ability with your teachers again, as well as your parents. And of course others here on AN would be happy to offer you more advice!

[yakattack]

I think I'll go with further - from what I can tell methods is simply isn't worth doing if there is something else that I will be more confident in, less stressed about, at overall more happy with. Thanks for all your help