Abortion - Are You Pro-Choice or Pro-Life?

[geminii]

What are people's views on abortion for medical reasons, but not for the mother, for the baby? For example, say it was proven at an early stage that the child would be born with a heart defect that only had a 10% chance of survival, and even then, would result in lots of painful surgeries and other complications (purely making this situation up). Genuinely curious, would your views 'soften' in this case? And if so, at what point do the complications become serious enough to warrant the exception?

If this was the case, I would say the baby should still be born. Yes, it has a defect and may go through many painful surgeries, but I don't think it's our place to play God and decide when and if a child should die. Yes, this is a religious argument (I'm religious - Hindu) and I think that if a baby's time comes to die, then that should be God's decision, not ours.

For an example, my friend had a family friend who was born with a heart condition (Hypoplastic Left Heart Syndrome), and his parents (thankfully) decided not to abort him simply because he had a heart condition. He was given a very small chance of survival. After many surgeries, he passed away at the age of 4 in 2015.
I'm glad he was given the chance to live, and I'm sure his parents were too. He was a delightful little kid, and it wouldn't have been fair to take away his entire life when his life expectancy had already been diminished significantly.

In cases such as ectopic pregnancies, I think abortion is okay, because yes, it is killing the baby, but it is saving the mother's life. Allowing an ectopic pregnancy to proceed would result in two deaths in some cases - and one life is better than none.

[EEEEEEP]

What are people's views on abortion for medical reasons, but not for the mother, for the baby? For example, say it was proven at an early stage that the child would be born with a heart defect that only had a 10% chance of survival, and even then, would result in lots of painful surgeries and other complications (purely making this situation up). Genuinely curious, would your views 'soften' in this case? And if so, at what point do the complications become serious enough to warrant the exception?

In that case, yes.

If the baby is likely to die in say 1 yr or not even last one year, then I would definitely agree on abortion.  ALso the baby will be in pain, or in some sort of situation where they cannot experience life.

[strawberries]

Interesting thread here. To be honest, I don't know where I stand anymore. Initially, when I was younger, I was pro-life because I thought killing was wrong. But, then again, I became pro-choice because "everyone else was". Now, I really don't know. It's a combination of "peer pressure" and personal beliefs. I have more to say but I'll add to this later...

[heids]

I just realised my position is neither pro-life nor pro-choice, it's essentially anti-life in a nutshell hahahahahaha

[geminii]

Interesting thread here. To be honest, I don't know where I stand anymore. Initially, when I was younger, I was pro-life because I thought killing was wrong. But, then again, I became pro-choice because "everyone else was". Now, I really don't know. It's a combination of "peer pressure" and personal beliefs. I have more to say but I'll add to this later...

I've experienced a similar situation to you - except the opposite way. I used to be more pro-choice because I thought it would be better to kill the baby than bring it into unfortunate circumstances, but then I realised that killing is wrong, unless in self-defence (hence why I believe that if the baby is 'harming' the mother, then it should be aborted). Propably took me a while to understand because when I first started thinking about whether abortion is right or wrong, it was in school where everyone told everyone it was okay, so automatically I thought that too. Overtime I realised it really is one of the worst possible crimes you could commit.

I just realised my position is neither pro-life nor pro-choice, it's essentially anti-life in a nutshell hahahahahaha

What do you mean heids?

[elysepopplewell]

I think the debate goes very different ways depending on someone's religious stance. If someone's number one reasoning for being anti-abortion, or pro-life, is religious grounds, then it's difficult to "discuss" without actually discussing religion more than abortion.

Having the debate between two atheists with opposing thoughts on abortion, or two Christians with opposing thoughts on abortion, would be really interesting because a similar moral background is being drawn upon. See, I'm an atheist and I've had this discussion with an Opus Dei Christian before, and his sole reasoning was that it goes against what his Church advises, it's not his role to play God, and all life is sacred. As for me, I don't have a Church to advise me, I don't follow a God, and the ruling of life being sacred therefore doesn't come from a place of authority for me.

Of course there are lots of arguments for or against abortion that go outside the realm of religion - but if the religious argument sits at the core of a debate it's difficult to have that core-common to bounce from.

Personally, I was disappointed that the bill didn't go through in NSW but I expected nothing different.

[Wales]

I think the debate goes very different ways depending on someone's religious stance. If someone's number one reasoning for being anti-abortion, or pro-life, is religious grounds, then it's difficult to "discuss" without actually discussing religion more than abortion.

Having the debate between two atheists with opposing thoughts on abortion, or two Christians with opposing thoughts on abortion, would be really interesting because a similar moral background is being drawn upon. See, I'm an atheist and I've had this discussion with an Opus Dei Christian before, and his sole reasoning was that it goes against what his Church advises, it's not his role to play God, and all life is sacred. As for me, I don't have a Church to advise me, I don't follow a God, and the ruling of life being sacred therefore doesn't come from a place of authority for me.

Of course there are lots of arguments for or against abortion that go outside the realm of religion - but if the religious argument sits at the core of a debate it's difficult to have that core-common to bounce from.

Personally, I was disappointed that the bill didn't go through in NSW but I expected nothing different.

I do think religion plays a large role in influencing many individuals in their stance on abortion. Having studied abortion for Islam their reasoning seems reasonable, especially regarding situations if the mother is in danger.

I think a lot of people try justify abortion as NOT murder/killing but I see it as in any way still as the killing of another being. It's the matter of justifying the ending of life from there.

[jamonwindeyer]

I've experienced a similar situation to you - except the opposite way. I used to be more pro-choice because I thought it would be better to kill the baby than bring it into unfortunate circumstances, but then I realised that killing is wrong, unless in self-defence (hence why I believe that if the baby is 'harming' the mother, then it should be aborted). Propably took me a while to understand because when I first started thinking about whether abortion is right or wrong, it was in school where everyone told everyone it was okay, so automatically I thought that too. Overtime I realised it really is one of the worst possible crimes you could commit.

Particularly on your last point there, one of the worst possible crimes you could commit - I think that is interesting. Like, that's a huge call to make isn't it?

Like, I can understand being against abortion. I'm personally for it - Well, at least in the sense that I was also hoping the Bill would go through. As I said earlier, I don't have a 100% pro choice or pro life outlook, and additionally, I don't think anyone is "for" abortion. Like, pro choice advocates aren't saying, "Yay, abortion, how fantastic."

However, a lot of people I know are against abortion and I can understand why they are (as Elyse said, usually religious, the place of religion in lawmaking is a debate for another day...)

But to say that abortion is one of the worst possible crimes you can commit is a huge call. A member of my family has had an abortion - She's a fantastic human being. Does lots of good things in the world. What you've said puts her in a similar bin as, say, the perpetrator of the recent terrorist attacks in Manchester. Of the Catholic priests that abused their positions to sexually assault young children. Of Kristi Abrahams, who abused her daughter for years, killed her at 6 years old, stuffed her body in a suitcase and buried her in bushland. Or, a personal one that always shakes me to the core: My Mum knew a young autistic boy. He wet the bed one night, and his parents (as punishment), put him naked in an ice cold bath, with the air conditioner on and fans on high, on a 0 degree night in Winter. He froze to death, for something that was completely out of his control.

When I think of the worst possible crimes you can commit, these are what I think of. I personally get really uncomfortable even hearing the suggestion that women who get abortions can be compared to these sorts of individuals...

[elysepopplewell]

I do think religion plays a large role in influencing many individuals in their stance on abortion. Having studied abortion for Islam their reasoning seems reasonable, especially regarding situations if the mother is in danger.

I think a lot of people try justify abortion as NOT murder/killing but I see it as in any way still as the killing of another being. It's the matter of justifying the ending of life from there.

Yes, love the SOR relevance!

The fact of the matter is: abortions will happen whether they are illegal or legal. By making abortions legal, we can promote the safe procedure of abortions. Also, the bill proposed in NSW wanted safe zones around clinics. If nothing else: THIS. I've been past a clinic in Surry Hills that has BULLIES out the front protesting anti-abortion. We all have liberties: the liberty to protest, the liberty to opinion, but be civil with your liberties. Recognise that tormenting someone going for an abortion outside the clinic is not a simple exercise in opinion and protest, but often it's literal bullying of a complete stranger. So, although I would've liked the entire bill to go through (it was incredibly thought out, in my opinion), I think the safe zone around a clinic is really important.

[geminii]

Particularly on your last point there, one of the worst possible crimes you could commit - I think that is interesting. Like, that's a huge call to make isn't it?

Like, I can understand being against abortion. I'm personally for it - Well, at least in the sense that I was also hoping the Bill would go through. As I said earlier, I don't have a 100% pro choice or pro life outlook, and additionally, I don't think anyone is "for" abortion. Like, pro choice advocates aren't saying, "Yay, abortion, how fantastic."

However, a lot of people I know are against abortion and I can understand why they are (as Elyse said, usually religious, the place of religion in lawmaking is a debate for another day...)

But to say that abortion is one of the worst possible crimes you can commit is a huge call. A member of my family has had an abortion - She's a fantastic human being. Does lots of good things in the world. What you've said puts her in a similar bin as, say, the perpetrator of the recent terrorist attacks in Manchester. Of the Catholic priests that abused their positions to sexually assault young children. Of Kristi Abrahams, who abused her daughter for years, killed her at 6 years old, stuffed her body in a suitcase and buried her in bushland. Or, a personal one that always shakes me to the core: My Mum knew a young autistic boy. He wet the bed one night, and his parents (as punishment), put him naked in an ice cold bath, with the air conditioner on and fans on high, on a 0 degree night in Winter. He froze to death, for something that was completely out of his control.

When I think of the worst possible crimes you can commit, these are what I think of. I personally get really uncomfortable even hearing the suggestion that women who get abortions can be compared to these sorts of individuals...

I do stand by my comment that it is one of the worst possible crimes you could commit. Unlike crimes such as murdering an ex-girlfriend/boyfriend - where one person may be guilty of cheating, blackmailing, etc., the murder of a foetus is the murder of the most innocent life on the planet. It literally has not even got a chance to live its life.
I'm not saying other murders aren't bad - what I'm saying is, the murder of a foetus is so much crueller. You're not killing someone who may have already been on earth for 5, 10, 20, 40 years, and has had a chance to experience life. You're killing someone who hasn't even been able to see the sun yet, or breathe fresh air, simply because, I don't know, 'it was a mistake' or 'I can't afford it'.
While that six year old girl who was killed and buried, that little boy that froze to death, and the victims of the terrrorist attacks in Manchester all had a chance to experience life, those killed by abortion never did. It's taking away the most basic right of a human being - the right to life.

I think the debate goes very different ways depending on someone's religious stance. If someone's number one reasoning for being anti-abortion, or pro-life, is religious grounds, then it's difficult to "discuss" without actually discussing religion more than abortion.

Having the debate between two atheists with opposing thoughts on abortion, or two Christians with opposing thoughts on abortion, would be really interesting because a similar moral background is being drawn upon. See, I'm an atheist and I've had this discussion with an Opus Dei Christian before, and his sole reasoning was that it goes against what his Church advises, it's not his role to play God, and all life is sacred. As for me, I don't have a Church to advise me, I don't follow a God, and the ruling of life being sacred therefore doesn't come from a place of authority for me.

Of course there are lots of arguments for or against abortion that go outside the realm of religion - but if the religious argument sits at the core of a debate it's difficult to have that core-common to bounce from.

Personally, I was disappointed that the bill didn't go through in NSW but I expected nothing different.

Of course it's not my only argument, I just felt it fitted well for the argument I was replying to.

My main argument is, it's wrong to kill babies. If you can prove to me that killing babies is okay, I'll change my mind and become pro-choice, but for now I'm advocating for life, not death.

The fact of the matter is: abortions will happen whether they are illegal or legal. By making abortions legal, we can promote the safe procedure of abortions. Also, the bill proposed in NSW wanted safe zones around clinics. If nothing else: THIS. I've been past a clinic in Surry Hills that has BULLIES out the front protesting anti-abortion. We all have liberties: the liberty to protest, the liberty to opinion, but be civil with your liberties. Recognise that tormenting someone going for an abortion outside the clinic is not a simple exercise in opinion and protest, but often it's literal bullying of a complete stranger. So, although I would've liked the entire bill to go through (it was incredibly thought out, in my opinion), I think the safe zone around a clinic is really important.

Why is it bullying to express your opinions?

Also, I found this: https://www.vice.com/en_au/article/hanging-out-with-sydneys-most-dedicated-anti-abortion-protesters
So holding up signs saying you're anti-abortion is bullying...but leaving a pig's head for the pro-lifers to see isn't?

[elysepopplewell]

Of course it's not my only argument, I just felt it fitted well for the argument I was replying to.

My main argument is, it's wrong to kill babies. If you can prove to me that killing babies is okay, I'll change my mind and become pro-choice, but for now I'm advocating for life, not death.

I wasn't aiming my comment at you - I just wanted to point out that the basis of this discussion will always be difficult because it's a matter of morality, science, and legality, all of which come from different stand points. I'm pro-choice, and I've invested a lot of energy into discussions about abortions, and usually it becomes futile when the contrasting opinion comes from a standpoint of religious morality. It's not because that is a wrong point, it's just because it's a point I simply can't relate to so we have to kind of come to a "agree to disagree" situation unless the debate is prepared to turn into a "how much should religion come in to politics" or "is God even real?" debate, which has it's own kind of merit as a stand alone debate.

Out of curiosity, (and this is to you, Geminii )do you have an opinion against the RU486 pill?


Edit: sorry adding a bit because I missed a question from you

Why is it bullying to express your opinions?

If it was as simple as expressing an opinion in a non-hostile, non-aggressive, non-condescending way, it wouldn't be bullying. And obviously people do protest civically a lot of the time. But, as I walked past the Surry Hills clinic that time there was name-calling "baby-murderer" "disgraceful human" and the likes of it. That's bullying.

[patriciarose]

honestly, it seems to depend on whether you believe the life of a dependant being is worth less than that of a independant one? some people believe it's a life worthy of protection the second conception occurs, some people believe that until it's fully developed consciously (ie. can register and feel pain) it's only a vessel, some people are kind of in the middle. i feel like it's quite interesting if you believe the former: does that mean if a pregnant woman is killed it's a double murder? can't figure out aus law on this, but a lot of places seem to define it as such only if the fetus can exist outside of the mother at the time of murder, so does that mean abortion should be legal until the fetus reaches that point of development? it's super interesting tbh.

I've experienced a similar situation to you - except the opposite way. I used to be more pro-choice because I thought it would be better to kill the baby than bring it into unfortunate circumstances, but then I realised that killing is wrong, unless in self-defence (hence why I believe that if the baby is 'harming' the mother, then it should be aborted).

so, if you were bringing the child into severe poverty or a possibly abusive household or knew it would have birth defects which would cause it (them?) to live in constant pain, etc etc, would you consider that preferable to abortion? do you think there could be situations when bringing a child to life would be a worse outcome for them, or is it just kind of always better to have the child and weather the consequences as best you can? (: this isn't meant to be attacking or anything, i'm just v intrigued haha.

Why is it bullying to express your opinions?

[/s]

have you seen how people like that picket? it tends to involve a lot of 'you're going to hell' signs and verbal abuse, which understandably is fairly unpalatable if you're already shaken up by having made the difficult decision to have an abortion. i've only heard of two instances where it got physically violent, though, (america wyd) which isn't enough to generalise. it's bullying to express your opinions in a way that intimidates or inhibits others and a lot of protestors do just that. i don't see anything wrong with expressing your opinions, but there are better ways to do it. like, god, if you have to picket, do it outside a government building because then at least someone who can be influenced by your decision might have a chance at seeing you.

[jamonwindeyer]

I do stand by my comment that it is one of the worst possible crimes you could commit. Unlike crimes such as murdering an ex-girlfriend/boyfriend - where one person may be guilty of cheating, blackmailing, etc., the murder of a foetus is the murder of the most innocent life on the planet. It literally has not even got a chance to live its life.
I'm not saying other murders aren't bad - what I'm saying is, the murder of a foetus is so much crueller. You're not killing someone who may have already been on earth for 5, 10, 20, 40 years, and has had a chance to experience life. You're killing someone who hasn't even been able to see the sun yet, or breathe fresh air, simply because, I don't know, 'it was a mistake' or 'I can't afford it'.
While that six year old girl who was killed and buried, that little boy that froze to death, and the victims of the terrrorist attacks in Manchester all had a chance to experience life, those killed by abortion never did. It's taking away the most basic right of a human being - the right to life.

To be honest, as much respect as I have for your right to have your opinion and express it as you choose, the fact that you are saying that abortion is 'crueller' than the pre-meditated murder of a partner is something I really can't be compatible to even begin to discuss. I'm not sure whether you are insinuating abortion is crueller than those things I listed because the 'victims haven't experienced life yet.' If you are - Well, I think you are very brave to say that. The idea that a woman who was raped and impregnated, who chooses to have an abortion, is on the same criminal level as a terrorist bomber - That's, yeah.

[geminii]

I wasn't aiming my comment at you - I just wanted to point out that the basis of this discussion will always be difficult because it's a matter of morality, science, and legality, all of which come from different stand points. I'm pro-choice, and I've invested a lot of energy into discussions about abortions, and usually it becomes futile when the contrasting opinion comes from a standpoint of religious morality. It's not because that is a wrong point, it's just because it's a point I simply can't relate to so we have to kind of come to a "agree to disagree" situation unless the debate is prepared to turn into a "how much should religion come in to politics" or "is God even real?" debate, which has it's own kind of merit as a stand alone debate.

Out of curiosity, (and this is to you, Geminii )do you have an opinion against the RU486 "morning after" pill?

Thanks, elyse Yes, I'm against the morning after pill. I wasn't too knowledgeable about it but I did some research (with the website you linked and a few others) and I previously thought it prevented pregnancy, now I realise it ends it and can be used by up to 50 days from the beginning of the pregnancy. So yes, if it's killed the baby then I'm against it.

[elysepopplewell]

Thanks, elyse Yes, I'm against the morning after pill. I wasn't too knowledgeable about it but I did some research (with the website you linked and a few others) and I previously thought it prevented pregnancy, now I realise it ends it and can be used by up to 50 days from the beginning of the pregnancy. So yes, if it's killed the baby then I'm against it.

Are you calling the "thing" a "baby" from the moment of the egg being fertilised? Or is a "baby" in your terms further down the track?