The VCE is biased

[ninwa]

Ninwa isn't allowed to reply to that.

... but

[chem-nerd]

A turd can not be polished with good essay writing skills.

but you can roll it in glitter

btw this post has nothing to do with the thread, I've just always wanted to be able to use this comeback to the 'can't polish a turd' statement

[polky]

Through this year I've learnt one solid fact, the VCE is extremely biased towards the Maths and Sciences. Have a look around, the vast majority of those who have obtained 95+ have done the 'asian five' or 'curry six' - (Methods, Spesh, Physics, Chem, Acc). Nearly all of these subjects get scaled extremely, yes they are hard however the learning curve for these subjects is quite smaller for those, who are naturally biased to the type of thinking that these subjects require. From observing those at my school, the kids studying the aforementioned subjects *generally* don't perform as well in English. Those A+ marks in Spesh SACs are quite rarely matched in English SACs.

I'll use one subject from the humanities to clearly illustrate my point - History: Revolutions. Last year, a raw 40 scaled down to a 39. I'm doing this subject myself this year, along with Chemistry (as a comparison). To obtain an A in a Revs SAC I had to do the following. Firstly, obtain a basic grasp of what happened, this required 3 months worths of classes in which we were taught the 'basics'. In about a week prior to the actual SAC, I started revising. This included revisiting all the content firstly on a basic level, then on an analytical level, and finally synthesize all the information to be prepared for the SAC. I had to memorize 5 quotes, 6 four-numbered statistics, and have my essay in my head - which totalled 10 pages in the acutal SAC.

For a recent Chem SAC I also obtained an A. The task was on electrolysis, galvanic cells, and fuel cells. This was taught to us in ~2 weeks. 4 days prior to the SAC I did all the extended-response check point questions releveant to electrolysis. I also did about 10 for each of the other areas of study. The SAC was about 4-5 pages long, and we finished it in a period.

Now, the point I'm trying to make is this. For the lead up to the exams, I will (and have) put in about 3x the hours for Revolutions than Chemistry - to obtain (hopefully) A+ on both of the exams. However, the reward for my efforts in History are it being scaled down. In Chem, a 35 gets me a 40. I'm not trying to insult the maths/sciences, what I'm saying is that those subjects compared with the humanities require a totally different approach.

Um just a thought... maybe you're just not very good at History Revs and thus you need to spend more time on it to consolidate the information, compared to chemistry.  Just like some people who find math/sciences super easy and can ace an exam by just understanding fundamental concepts, there are individuals who are talented in the humanities and do well without much effort (those who can remember information and consolidate concepts without needing to revise/memorise large chunks).  Everyone just learns differently and has strengths in different areas.  Maybe your strengths lie in chemistry!

Also, I don't think the point of any subject is just hardcore memorising - it's to apply learnt concepts to unfamiliar situations.  Yes, it may seem that History Revs has more memorising than math/science subjects (dates, facts, events), but not committing to memory entire essays! 

Whatever it is, I don't think it is reasonable to expect that the same amount of effort would yield the same result for different subjects.  That's just not how people work.  Plus all that other stuff that people have mentioned about scaling and how it works - you're being scaled relative to the strength of the cohort, not the apparent (subjective) difficulty of a subject.

Don't get too caught up in VCE and ENTER and scaling.  Just enjoy learning something which interests you, and everything else will fall into place.

[excal]

A turd can not be polished with good essay writing skills.

but you can roll it in glitter

btw this post has nothing to do with the thread, I've just always wanted to be able to use this comeback to the 'can't polish a turd' statement

It's still gonna smell pretty bad.

Don't get too caught up in VCE and ENTER and scaling.  Just enjoy learning something which interests you, and everything else will fall into place.

Perhaps the best advice yet.

I feel like I've had a very easy Year 12, as I enjoyed the content of each of my subjects in amongst the bedlam that you'd expect from overstressed students (that's not to say I didn't do any work, there was certainly plenty of it!). In fact, for IP&M, I really enjoyed the subject matter and my marks reflect that - even though subject scaled down significantly, it was most definitely up there in my Primary 4.

And, I'm studying my course of first preference.

[appianway]

I mean it in the sense that the arts courses are exceptionally competitive, and this competition isn't reflected in the scaling.

scaling is not meant to adjust for competition within a subject

Scaling adjusts scores so that they're in accordance with the cohort's academic performance. But lots of students opt not to study courses like music because the cohort's incredibly strong, and hence they're likely to score a lower mark without the compensation of scaling.

[NE2000]

I think there may be confusion here between scaling and moderation? Or maybe it's just me that's confused.

[xXNovaxX]

I think there may be confusion here between scaling and moderation? Or maybe it's just me that's confused.

Nope, it's just you ........only kidding. I'm not sure if there's a difference?



Moderation is the process of eliminating or lessening extremes. (hence your English SACS are checked by more than 1 teacher)

for the STUDY SCORE however, I think SCALING is used.
For example, in Economics in 2007 the average VCE Study Score was 30, but the students averaged 32 for all their studies. This shows that the students who did Economics in 2007 were of above average strength in their other studies. Therefore the scaling process adjusted the Study Scores upwards so that the

VTAC adjusts the Study Scores for each study to take account of how strong the students were in the study and
how difficult it was to achieve the middle ranking. The strength of competition in each study is measured by how well the students performed in all their studies.

But that's weird, you know how it says, it scales according to how you did in your other subjects? But how come in eco, and other subjects, they ALWAYS tend to be scaled up, there must be SOME years when people who did eco did bad in other subjects? But we always understand the sciences, and eco, etc to be scaled UPWARDS. I am missing a point here :S

[kendraaaaa]

My understanding of scaling is that they add/minus to your marks to get a the bell-shaped curve.

[NE2000]

I think there may be confusion here between scaling and moderation? Or maybe it's just me that's confused.

Nope, it's just you ........only kidding. I'm not sure if there's a difference?



Moderation is the process of eliminating or lessening extremes. (hence your English SACS are checked by more than 1 teacher)

for the STUDY SCORE however, I think SCALING is used.
For example, in Economics in 2007 the average VCE Study Score was 30, but the students averaged 32 for all their studies. This shows that the students who did Economics in 2007 were of above average strength in their other studies. Therefore the scaling process adjusted the Study Scores upwards so that the

VTAC adjusts the Study Scores for each study to take account of how strong the students were in the study and
how difficult it was to achieve the middle ranking. The strength of competition in each study is measured by how well the students performed in all their studies.

But that's weird, you know how it says, it scales according to how you did in your other subjects? But how come in eco, and other subjects, they ALWAYS tend to be scaled up, there must be SOME years when people who did eco did bad in other subjects? But we always understand the sciences, and eco, etc to be scaled UPWARDS. I am missing a point here :S

The way I see it is that moderation is the adjustment of our SAC marks that goes on that is dependent on the strength and competitiveness of the cohort we're in. So then comments about people in school with strong science cohorts traditionally going ahead and taking science subjects to take advantage of moderation make sense.

Scaling is the adjustment of the study score at the end which is what this discussion is about. Again, some people may take science subjects for the scaling...but that could actually lower the scaling...as more people who may not be able to cope with the demands of say spesh take it because "it'll scale up anyway" and then the overall strength of the spesh cohort reduces and hence reduced scaling

[jerry]

VCAA should just make every vce subjects of equal difficulty (with a few minor exceptions, like further maths vs specialist maths), then there's no much need of scaling and therefore makes things more fair.

[IntoTheNewWorld]

Is that even possible...?

[shinny]

VCAA should just make every vce subjects of equal difficulty (with a few minor exceptions, like further maths vs specialist maths), then there's no much need of scaling and therefore makes things more fair.

The point of scaling is that making all the subjects fair is obviously impossible. They all require different skills and have different subject matter to begin with.

[xXNovaxX]

Let's just abolish the VCE....

As much as we all complain, myself included, we have to admit, the way they all work it out, moderate, scale, bell curve-it etc is pretty clever, and really it is a fair system. In the USA, they don't have exams for every subject like we do, they undertake i think it was 7 GAT like tests to qualify for Uni, and you can't practise for it. (this is from a previous trhead I posted regarding equivalent of VCE o/s)

So we should be grateful! LOL, why do I doubt myself as i say this  =(

[Mao]

As much as people like to complain, the VCE system is one of the better ones. You actually get to choose what you want to study from a wide range of subjects. Imagine being in a system where you are forced into choosing a numeracy or a humanity stream, or like in the USA where you have to know a bit about everything.

And from a mathematical perspective, the more I look at it, the less fault I can find. It is actually quite fair for a system this complex, and in my opinion, gives students a much better level playing field than forcing people to do what they don't like.

[Glockmeister]

VCAA should just make every vce subjects of equal difficulty (with a few minor exceptions, like further maths vs specialist maths), then there's no much need of scaling and therefore makes things more fair.

That's like comparing apples and oranges. You can't really say objectively that apples are better than oranges.