Is VCE fair?

[zomgSEAN]

But the thing is...that would mean 9358901580135x more stress and people would be discouraged much more easily. Let's take a subject like Methods which has its exam in one period at the end of the year. Before this period people who have screwed up their SACs will be like "I'm going to whip the exams" and they are thereby encouraged to try. Yet for something like Chem for a midyear and an end-of-year, some people will be discouraged at their lacklustre performance on the midyears and are then discouraged to work on that subject for the rest of the year. It's a generalization, I know.

And the only thing I really want is to have an exam where you have ~3 hours to solve maybe 4-5 absurdly hard maths/science problems. I really don't like the fact that I can immediately perceive how to do 95% of exam questions that I see.

Aha, but you see, i think you are greatly confused in saying so.

Why do we stress about exams in the first place? I think the answer is because they're worth so very much of a score which can determine the next few years of our lives. The amount of stress felt is directly proportionate to how much the assessment will contribute to your study score, i believe.
Numerous external exams (perhaps even for each AOS) would achieve the following:
PROS
-More consistency in study and revision across the student population, as important assessments would be more frequent;
-Stress levels spread evenly throughout the year, rather than overflowing at the mid- and end-points;
-An increased element of fairness, as students are given multiple opportunities to prove their knowledge at an external level, which will ultimately contribute to their scaling and overall score;
-Less dependency on how one is feeling on the day of an exam, as they will be worth proportionately less;
-Remove excellent students receiving a score that is not reflective of their true knowledge, intelligence or academic ability, due to having a headache, cold or extreme levels of stress on ONE DAY OF THEIR LIFE.
CONS
-Higher costs to Government.

To say the costs outweigh the potential benefit is ludicrous, in my mind. Ignoring this suggestion based on practicality and fiscal matters in entirely unjust and a disgrace to the education system; the centrepoint of all other industries.

[IntoTheNewWorld]

And the only thing I really want is to have an exam where you have ~3 hours to solve maybe 4-5 absurdly hard maths/science problems. I really don't like the fact that I can immediately perceive how to do 95% of exam questions that I see.

Where do you draw the line at difficult...? I couldn't understand 95% of the Methods exam questions I saw...?

[Russ]

Where do you draw the line at difficult...? I couldn't understand 95% of the Methods exam questions I saw...?

This is why it's not the case, you'd get 5% of the state doing well and the other 95% having no chance. Also, you'd only be testing a few concepts which is something this thread seems to hate.

To say the costs outweigh the potential benefit is ludicrous, in my mind. Ignoring this suggestion based on practicality and fiscal matters in entirely unjust and a disgrace to the education system; the centrepoint of all other industries.

Where do you want to take the money from? Say there's an exam at the end of every term, you just quadrupled (talking generally) the amount of money required to organise/write/correct/etc. exams. Sure, we could improve the education system by injecting more money into it and streamlining it so that students are rewarded based on what they've learned but it's not cost effective. If we can produce people who are capable of success in the workforce/higher education then the VCE/HSC/etc. is doing its job.

[tram]

But the thing is...that would mean 9358901580135x more stress and people would be discouraged much more easily. Let's take a subject like Methods which has its exam in one period at the end of the year. Before this period people who have screwed up their SACs will be like "I'm going to whip the exams" and they are thereby encouraged to try. Yet for something like Chem for a midyear and an end-of-year, some people will be discouraged at their lacklustre performance on the midyears and are then discouraged to work on that subject for the rest of the year. It's a generalization, I know.

And the only thing I really want is to have an exam where you have ~3 hours to solve maybe 4-5 absurdly hard maths/science problems. I really don't like the fact that I can immediately perceive how to do 95% of exam questions that I see.

dude, that describes the melbourne uni maths comp pretty much. and look at the resutl fro that....... what 50%+ of ppl get uner 50+....AND that's the small sample of already really decnt students that bother to sit it...

having an exam every term is ludicrous. It is utterly impratical. The aftermath of the end of year exams last for about 6 months by the time they've tyed up all the loose ends e.g. inspecting scripts is just happning now for students who sat the mid year. Now do that four times a year.....

Sure in an ideal world ther woudl be amny more exams, but as has been metioned in the thread many times, i wouldn't complain about vce, it's as fair as it gets....

at least when you're sick on an exam you can apply for a derived score, try telling the multinational comapany you're applying for a job in that you have a cough on the day of your inteview and see how they would respond...

[zomgSEAN]

Where do you want to take the money from? Say there's an exam at the end of every term, you just quadrupled (talking generally) the amount of money required to organise/write/correct/etc. exams. Sure, we could improve the education system by injecting more money into it and streamlining it so that students are rewarded based on what they've learned but it's not cost effective. If we can produce people who are capable of success in the workforce/higher education then the VCE/HSC/etc. is doing its job.

having an exam every term is ludicrous. It is utterly impratical. The aftermath of the end of year exams last for about 6 months by the time they've tyed up all the loose ends e.g. inspecting scripts is just happning now for students who sat the mid year. Now do that four times a year.....

Sure in an ideal world ther woudl be amny more exams, but as has been metioned in the thread many times, i wouldn't complain about vce, it's as fair as it gets....

To dismiss the idea of multiple examinations (which you have both noted as beneficial in nature) due to the high costs and assumed impracticality associated with such, is a clear representation of an attitude unwilling for change. To give up on a brilliant proposition due to foreseen troubles which would prove somewhat difficult to overcome, is perhaps the clearest representation of "complacency stagnating society." (brilliant quote m@tty)

If the world's great revolutionaries gave up on their ideas because they contained economic hardships and enormous amounts of effort to overcome, the world would be a much worse place.

Improvement can only occur if we make the attempt. And that step starts with us, as victims of this major flaw.

at least when you're sick on an exam you can apply for a derived score, try telling the multinational comapany you're applying for a job in that you have a cough on the day of your inteview and see how they would respond...

VCE shouldn't be akin to the harsh corporate world awaiting some. It should prepare us for such, but not at the cost of fair assessment. VCE should provide students with learning opportunities that inspire them to further their education and training; not make them want to escape it.

[TrueTears]

Sure in an ideal world ther woudl be amny more exams, but as has been metioned in the thread many times, i wouldn't complain about vce, it's as fair as it gets....

Yah, very true, it's one of the fairest systems out there...

[matt123]

Sure in an ideal world ther woudl be amny more exams, but as has been metioned in the thread many times, i wouldn't complain about vce, it's as fair as it gets....

Yah, very true, it's one of the fairest systems out there...

yeah agreed

I mean , I know of alot of people who are majorly abusing the system , but thats always going to happen.

the only main unfair thing Is , if you are sick and miss out on an exam they use GAT results.
I know of someone who would have got an amazing score in psych last year .. but missed the exam and im guessing they used his gat scores ( which he didnt really even bother with). i know its his own fault .. but i dont like how a 3 hour RANDOM test is meant to decide how well you would do in a exam which you study hard for.

All in all.
vce is a very fair system considering the amount of people doing it.

[zomgSEAN]

Sure in an ideal world ther woudl be amny more exams, but as has been metioned in the thread many times, i wouldn't complain about vce, it's as fair as it gets....

Yah, very true, it's one of the fairest systems out there...

TrueTears, tell me this;

You are in a room with 3 other people. One has cancer of the brain. Another, tuberculosis. The third, is vomiting blood violently.
You have a bad case of tonsillitis.

Would you refuse medical attention as you are the healthiest, by comparison?

[tram]

ok zomgSEAN, sure whatever i'm not going to blame you for wanting change, and i don't actually digagree with the undelying principle of your argument, i just think you are severely underestimating the magnitude of what you are proposing

[TrueTears]

I don't get your question lol

What's tonsillitis? If it's not a really bad sickness I probably wouldn't go to the hospital, if it was I'd go and get checked up.


Anyways I don't see how that has anything to do with VCE being fair, like I said earlier, when compared with many other systems out there, it is by far the fairest, be happy with what you have, it's not perfect so what, that's life, at least it's better than the other systems out there.

[tram]

Sure in an ideal world ther woudl be amny more exams, but as has been metioned in the thread many times, i wouldn't complain about vce, it's as fair as it gets....

Yah, very true, it's one of the fairest systems out there...

TrueTears, tell me this;

You are in a room with 3 other people. One has cancer of the brain. Another, tuberculosis. The third, is vomiting blood violently.
You have a bad case of tonsillitis.

Would you refuse medical attention as you are the healthiest, by comparison?

if it was me? of course.......i don't see what you point is zomgSEAN.....

[shinny]

Where do you want to take the money from? Say there's an exam at the end of every term, you just quadrupled (talking generally) the amount of money required to organise/write/correct/etc. exams. Sure, we could improve the education system by injecting more money into it and streamlining it so that students are rewarded based on what they've learned but it's not cost effective. If we can produce people who are capable of success in the workforce/higher education then the VCE/HSC/etc. is doing its job.

having an exam every term is ludicrous. It is utterly impratical. The aftermath of the end of year exams last for about 6 months by the time they've tyed up all the loose ends e.g. inspecting scripts is just happning now for students who sat the mid year. Now do that four times a year.....

Sure in an ideal world ther woudl be amny more exams, but as has been metioned in the thread many times, i wouldn't complain about vce, it's as fair as it gets....

To dismiss the idea of multiple examinations (which you have both noted as beneficial in nature) due to the high costs and assumed impracticality associated with such, is a clear representation of an attitude unwilling for revolution. To give up on a brilliant proposition due to foreseen troubles which would prove somewhat difficult to overcome, is perhaps the clearest representation of "complacency stagnating society." (brilliant quote m@tty)

If the world's great revolutionaries gave up on their ideas because they contained economic hardships and enormous amounts of effort to overcome, the world would be a much worse place.

Improvement can only occur if we make the attempt. And that step starts with us, as victims of this major flaw.

at least when you're sick on an exam you can apply for a derived score, try telling the multinational comapany you're applying for a job in that you have a cough on the day of your inteview and see how they would respond...

VCE shouldn't be akin to the harsh corporate world awaiting some. It should prepare us for such, but not at the cost of fair assessment. VCE should provide students with learning opportunities that inspire them to further their education and training; not make them want to escape it.

I'm just wondering what the benefit of having more examinations will actually be in reality. The most influential effect will probably be sorting out those who put in consistent effort from those who don't (i.e. crammers). The intended effect of reflecting people's true ability probably isn't going to be that significant, and not worth the economic trade off. Sure, it may help out those few cases where people actually do bomb out, but I'd say most people get the mark they deserve just from knowing what SS's my friends got.

Sure in an ideal world ther woudl be amny more exams, but as has been metioned in the thread many times, i wouldn't complain about vce, it's as fair as it gets....

Yah, very true, it's one of the fairest systems out there...

TrueTears, tell me this;

You are in a room with 3 other people. One has cancer of the brain. Another, tuberculosis. The third, is vomiting blood violently.
You have a bad case of tonsillitis.

Would you refuse medical attention as you are the healthiest, by comparison?

I don't really see the complete relevance of this analogy and it's not even up to the individual since the doctors will triage the situation accordingly, just like how the government will when it comes to allocation of funds. We've got public infrastructure such as trains and roads that need work, a dying health care system and a education system that's working relatively fine. However, a few students had their scores misrepresented. What should the money go into?

[Russ]

To dismiss the idea of multiple examinations (which you have both noted as beneficial in nature) due to the high costs and assumed impracticality associated with such, is a clear representation of an attitude unwilling for revolution.

You know what else would be beneficial? If you could have an elective surgery on the same day you decided you needed it, for free, because without good health everything else (including education) is worthless. The reason we can't do this, is because it's not feasible. With a realistic approach, introducing extra exams / different types of assessment / etc. is something that needs to be considered very carefully and introduced slowly. Add mid year assessment for more of the science based subjects, like maths, then consider what effect it has had. Don't jump straight to a revolution (lol) and changing the whole thing.

If the world's great revolutionaries gave up on their ideas because they contained economic hardships and enormous amounts of effort to overcome, the world would be a much worse place.

So redesigning the Victorian education system is just as important as abolishing apartheid in South Africa? No, it's not, so there shouldn't be an overly zealous approach to it. (Yes, it's a stupid comparison, but that just proves the point of comparing the world's great revolutionaries to this situation...) VCE assessment is over an (arbitrary) "fair" threshold. We could bring it closer to "optimum" but it's a curve of diminishing returns. There is no reason to completely overhaul and redesign the education system when it is already perfectly functional.

You are in a room with 3 other people. One has cancer of the brain. Another, tuberculosis. The third, is vomiting blood violently.
You have a bad case of tonsillitis.

Would you refuse medical attention as you are the healthiest, by comparison?

Please tell me this was facetious...

FWIW, the brain cancer and TB patients don't need attention and there's really not much you can do for the guy vomiting blood without proper medical equipment

[Glockmeister]

The one thing I would only mention in these sorts of thread is that you will only know what constitutes an unfair test when you start doing university assessments.

[Russ]

The one thing I would only mention in these sorts of thread is that you will only know what constitutes an unfair test when you start doing university assessments.

Best (worst) question I ever had was "draw a cell in detail"