AMFAS topics discussion.

[Blakhitman]

Add ideas people also add topics if you want and we will discuss! 

‘For all our admiration of More, it is the Cromwells of this world who reflect reality and credibility.’ Discuss.

-Talk about More and his admirable qualities and idealistic character
-Outline Cromwell’s corruption and pragmatic views. Dishonouring self is not credible.
-Cromwell acts to distort reality and manipulate public opinion
-Modern audience can relate to pragmatism (Cromwell) more so than Idealism (More) but still admire More’s qualities, it’s just that the real world populates more Cromwells than Mores.Bolt suggests that the world needs more Mores (lol) and that that Cromwells of this world only prosper if they have the tacit approval of the majority.

'When a man takes an oath, Meg, he's holding his own self in his hands' How does More resist the various pressures to crack his 'self'?

-More is tempted as well as threatened to go against his conscience “for the sake of public duties”.
-Essentially More employs the “silence” approach and hopes they will “leave him alone”.
-More remains to have hope in God even at his execution as he is so “blithe to go to him”.

‘A Man for all Seasons demonstrates that passive resistance will always fail.’ Discuss.

-Leaders (authority) are corrupt.
-More resists the authority without violence as he “does none harm”
-The corrupt authority doesn’t tolerate his “opposition”.
-Essentially Corrupt leaders, and corrupt leaders only, will only allow for people “to bless” their decisions or “be destroyed” and any passive resistance will always fail.
-Passive resistance will only fail if the rulers have a majority.
-More’s “stance” although somewhat silenced, still had a major impact throughout the world as his silence was interpreted as dissent

Both the decline of a man of principle and the steady rise of an opportunist are discussed in A Man for all Seasons.

-Common man predicts Rich will “come to nothing” early in the play. Allowing for possible foreshadowing of a twist of events??? And then Rich (opportunist) rises in status and power his “household expanding” at the expense of his “innocence”But opportunism can sacrifice self-integrity and Bolt suggests that people are worthless if they do no abide by their selves. 
-More gradually loses his wealth and rank throughout the play.
- Although More declines in wealth and status, and Rich rises, More is the admirable character.

Cromwell says to More, "you brought yourself to where you stand now". Is More responsible for the situation in which he finds himself?

-More’s conscience could not allow him to come with the majority.
-King threatens More, and doesn’t allow for opposition.
-Cromwell strives to find the downfall of More.
-Had More given the oath and “not believe it in his heart” he could have been “raised” by the king. But also, Bolt intimates that society will suffer if individuals relinquish their own convictions and accept those of the state.


The Common Man provides an objective view into the tragic circumstances surrounding More's death. Discuss.

-Brechtian device, prevents emotional reading of play.
-Gives his own insights on characters, reveals information of characters and their fate. The Common Man is a biased narrator who at times seeks to implicate the audience in his own ideas.
-Offers contrast between his shapeshifting character and More’s “anchored” principles.

Norfolk and Alice both accuse More of cruelty. Does the play show More’s failings as well as his virtues?

-More is portrayed as a “true son of a church” in AMFAS.
-Alice thinks of more as a “fool” and cruel for causing them to live in poverty. (“bracken a luxury”) however would his family love him as much if he were any other person?
-However More is also depicted as “the best man” through Alice’s view of More as a husband. More is also concerned about his family (“leave the country”) he sees adhering to his conscience as non-negotiable but he tries to protect his family and their souls by not informing them of his views.
-Essentially More can be said to be Virtuous by those willing to accept religion as a good cause. However those not so willing, may frown upon More’s willingness to let his family live in a “dark [cold] room”.

[kenhung123]

Are these the ideas per paragraph? I'm not sure how you can discuss a lot from those?

[m@tty]

What about evidence, what do you think are the good pieces?

I'll get some that I have and chuck it in here soon.

EDIT:

Amalgamation of both 99.95 and my quotes...

'that which is common to us all'

'in silence is my safety under the law'

'ill brook no opposition'

'currents and eddies'

'ebbs and flows'

'thickets of the law'

'behold the head of a traitor'

'the trick is to stay in your depth'

'seagoing principles'

'adamantine sense of self'

'draw the audience into the play not thrust them out of it'

'a hero of selfhood'

'moral squint'

'the king's ear'

'when the king wants something done, i do it'

'your conscience is your own affair but youre a statesmen'

'qui tacet consentire - silence gives consent'

'come with us for fellowship'

'its just a matter of finding the right law, or making one'

'Every man has his price'.

'better a live rat than a dead lion'

'one day someone will ask him for something he wants to keep and he'll be out of practice.'

'crank he may be, traitor he is not'

Cromwell to More: '[I am] one of your multitudinous admirers'

'I've no taste for hemlock'

'Sometimes we must stand fast a little, even at the risk of being heroes'

'this is not the stuff of which martyrs are made'

"The law is not a "light" for you or any man to see by; the law is not an instrument of any kind. (To the FOREMAN) The law is a causeway upon which, so long as he keeps to it, a citizen may walk safely. (Earnestly addressing him) In matters of conscience"

"I do none harm I say none harm I think none harm"

" Dear Lord, give us rest tonight, or if we must be wakeful, cheerful. Careful only for our soul's salvation. For Christ's sake. Amen. And bless our Lord the King."

"I believe, when statesmen forsake their own private conscience for the sake of their public duties . . . they lead their country by a short route to chaos. (During this speech he relights the candle with another) And we shall have my prayers to fall back on."

"It would depends what I was offered"


Cromwell: "so much wickedness purchases so much worldly prospering"

"Now our present Lord Chancellor-there's an innocent man"

To Rich, who just informed about More's bribe " you'll find it easier next time "

"administrative convenience"

Rich: "I'm lamenting. I've lost my innocence."

"Help me. I'm adrift"


Important bit at close of scene 1(good for discussion of Rich and especially Cromwell..):

"CROMWELL Well, there are these men-you know-"upright," "steadfast," men who want themselves to be the constant factor in the situation; which, of course, they can't be. The situation rolls forward in any case.

RICH (Still stubbornly) So what happens?

CROMWELL (Not liking his tone, coldly) If they've any sense they get out of its way.

RICH What if they haven't any sense?

CROMWELL (Still coldly) What, none at all? Well, then they're only fit for Heaven. But Sir Thomas has plenty of sense; he could be frightened

RICH (Looks up, his face nasty) Don't forget he's an innocent, Master Cromwell.

CROMWELL I think we'll finish there for tonight. After all, he is the Lord Chancellor. (Going)

RICH You wouldn't find him easy to frighten! (CROMWELL exits. He calls after him) You've mistaken your man this time! He doesn't know how to be frightened!

CROMWELL (Returning. RICH rises at his approach) Doesn't

know how to be frightened? Why, then he never put his hand in a candle . . . Did he?

(And seizing RICH by the wrist he holds his hand in the candle flame)

RICH (Screeches and darts back, hugging his hand in his armpit, regarding CROMWELL with horror) You enjoyed that! (CROMWELL's downturned face is amazed. Triumphantly) You enjoyed it!"

[Blakhitman]

Are these the ideas per paragraph? I'm not sure how you can discuss a lot from those?

Just ideas generally. What first comes to mind.

What about evidence, what do you think are the good pieces?

I'll get some that I have and chuck it in here soon.

I guess we could include evidence.

Soon better be soon

[Blakhitman]

Wow you have everything there :S

EDIT: don't forget this wonderful document of quotes ordered by character.

Printed all the quotes and gonna read from now til exam.

I'm off guys and GOOD LUCK

[m@tty]

Most important evidence, ordered by character:

More:
~'in silence is my safety under the law'

~'thickets of the law'

~'behold the head of a traitor'

~'adamantine sense of self'

~'a hero of selfhood'

~'moral squint'

~'your conscience is your own affair but youre a statesmen'

~'one day someone will ask him for something he wants to keep and he'll be out of practice.'

~'crank he may be, traitor he is not'

~'I've no taste for hemlock'

~'Perhaps we must stand fast a little, even at the risk of being heroes'

~'this is not the stuff of which martyrs are made'

~"I do none harm I say none harm I think none harm"

~" Dear Lord, give us rest tonight, or if we must be wakeful, cheerful. Careful only for our soul's salvation. For Christ's sake. Amen. And bless our Lord the King."

~'I truly believe I am the safest man in England'

The Common Man:

~'that which is common to us all'

~'the great thing's not to get out of your depth'

~'better a live rat than a dead lion'

~More says: 'these plain, simple men!'

~'draw the audience into the play not thrust them out of it'

~

Cromwell:

To More: '[I am] one of your multitudinous admirers'

~'when the king wants something done, i do it'

~'its just a matter of finding the right law, or making one'

~ "so much wickedness purchases so much worldly prospering"

~"Now our present Lord Chancellor-there's an innocent man"

Rich:

~Rich: "I'm lamenting. I've lost my innocence."

~"Help me. I'm adrift"

~'Every man has his price'.

Henry:

~'I'll brook no opposition'

~Refers to his court as a "licentious mob"

The law:
Referred to as
~a 'ship'
~a forest ('thickets')
~a causeway
~ ...

Miscellaneous:

~'ebbs and flows'
~'I show you the times'
~'different boats from different ports' - teacher said to use this to describe the differences between characters ... xD
~

EDIT: No, Blakhitman, I didn't know about that list ... xD