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July 22, 2025, 09:48:57 am

Author Topic: Letter in today's Age.  (Read 8313 times)  Share 

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Winter

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Re: Letter in today's Age.
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2010, 09:45:31 pm »
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It doesn't matter how much time you spend studying or how many exam papers you do - it all depends on whether the wind is blowing your way on exam day (This is what I heard from someone and sad enough, I learnt this lesson the hard way this year)

No joke, I was on the train the day of results and I heard a girl explain to her friend that "if someone got a better rank than you, but they didn't do as well - they get your ATAR and you get theirs" -   :uglystupid2: *massive facepalm*

This doesn't sound very fair...

happyhappyland

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Re: Letter in today's Age.
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2010, 09:51:04 pm »
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60+ hours of studying is nothing... Exam period is about one month thats about 2 hours a day...
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sgeorge

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Re: Letter in today's Age.
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2010, 09:55:12 pm »
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^ If she was doing year 12 she might have been doing an additional 4 or so subjects. So in that situation 60 hours may have been a lot for a single subject. I don't think it specifies though...

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m@tty

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Re: Letter in today's Age.
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2010, 11:49:00 pm »
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The SAC system based on ranking does fail at times. If the SACs aren't hard enough, then true talent isn't rewarded, as 'excellent' students receive similar marks to those who are just 'good', and careless errors can even put them behind others xD I realise that one may argue: "but they made mistakes, and got a lower mark in SACs, so they deserve to get a lower mark." Yes, that is the premise that this system is based on. But in situations such as this, is it really fair on the student? They weren't given a chance to shine? So is it their fault? Should their mark then be dependant upon the performance of these other students?

But I digress. The issue I want to raise is one which I have just come to realise myself: The ranking system fails with a small cohort. In a large school, you'd be right to assume that there would be a good spread of ability, from the high achieving students to the bludgers. So in this school is a few people were to be ranked slightly "unfairly"  - I use this word to denote being ranked outside of their ability, for whatever reason - then there would be minimal impact on them, because there would only be a little difference in the moderated scores they received and that which they "deserve".

However, in a small cohort, there may be vast differences between the abilities of students. So if for example, the most capable student receives second rank, then there will be a large impact on the students moderated SAC score, and hence their SS - it could even end up costing them on their ATAR. And these 'damages' to their score are independent of the actual SAC mark, so long as they are ranked second.

Now, the reason I have brought this up is because I was affected by it. I don't mean to blow my own trumpet and claim that I am 'smarter' than everyone else in my school, but in terms of SACs I was severely disadvantaged for being just a few percent in SAC average behind someone who was not able to maintain such a high average in exams.

As an example of this: I was just 2 percent behind rank 1 in chemistry yet there was a whole grades difference in our moderated SAC score; she received an A+ while I was allotted an A. That's a difference of ~10% just because she did not maintain her average over exams. So even though I had 95% in SACs and an even higher average in exams, I get 44. Had the rankings been reversed (remember it would only take a change of 1-2% for each of us), I would have had 48+.

Another example, which shows even more blatantly the failing of the current SAC system, is my specialist maths result this year. In this subject I was just 1% behind first rank, and because of this minuscule difference my SACs were relegated to a B+! So because someone who marginally outperformed me in SACs stumbled in the exams, I take his "punishment" too? That is illogical. Again, this tiny difference in SACs, (which would normally be ignored anyway as we both had averages of over 90,) has cost me upwards of 6 SS points. That is unfair. Being 1% behind in SACs equates to a difference of two grades? If the ranking were reversed, I would have easily hit 42. Instead, I got 36.


The people who have the power to stop this is teachers, by setting harder SACs to provide a better spread of results.

Again, I expect that many will follow the line that "oh, but they made more mistakes, so they should get a lower score". I agree, the score should be lower, but not disproportionately;  Is it really fair for a student who has 1% difference in SAC score to receive 20% lower in their moderated score? I shouldn't think so. This is what the current ranking system for SACs allows when there are holes in the distribution of performance of students (ie one student at high level, then the next student is only moderate. Or even a batch at high level, then a batch at moderate level. Those who are ranked around the change in "skill" can be disadvantaged.) And this is most likely to happen in small cohorts, but it also happens in large ones too.



EDIT:
Just to condense for those who cbf reading:

My main qualm with the current system is that a marginal difference in raw SAC scores can lead to a disproportionate discrepancy in the moderated mark.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2010, 11:51:11 pm by m@tty »
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shinny

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Re: Letter in today's Age.
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2010, 11:56:44 pm »
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^ Agreed. It's something I've noticed myself before but there's not much you can do about it I guess (well nothing that I've thought of which would work well; notably, I haven't thought very hard about it). This is why schools such as MHS and McRob consistently do well. Regardless of the fact that their cohorts are I guess inherently already smart, they gain an advantage on SACs as well. For physics, my brother got around mostly a D average for SACs with some compensation by a few A's from plagiarising others' prac reports. In the end, he ended with an A for his moderated SAC mark. Wut.
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Chavi

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Re: Letter in today's Age.
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2010, 11:57:23 pm »
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the sooner she realises that VCE means shit all in the scheme of things, the easier it will be to move on with real, un-examinable life
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JinXi

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Re: Letter in today's Age.
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2010, 11:59:27 pm »
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the sooner she realises that VCE means shit all in the scheme of things, the easier it will be to move on with real, un-examinable life
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Re: Letter in today's Age.
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2010, 12:02:10 am »
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The people who have the power to stop this is teachers, by setting harder SACs to provide a better spread of results.

EDIT:
Just to condense for those who cbf reading:

My main qualm with the current system is that a marginal difference in raw SAC scores can lead to a disproportionate discrepancy in the moderated mark.
Heh that's what I asked my Accounting teacher to do and it bumped my 95% SAC average (thanks to silly mistakes) to 99% average.

However I have a tendency to do badly on external assessments so I apologise to those students in my cohort who have been affected by my poor BusMan/Acc/Economics exam marks (I was rank 1-3 in all three but did badly in all exams ;__; A,B+,C..)
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m@tty

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Re: Letter in today's Age.
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2010, 12:02:23 am »
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Remember though that there are many people out there who do not get into the courses they would like to. So problems in the system that contribute to them missing out is a justified cause for anger.
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Chavi

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Re: Letter in today's Age.
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2010, 12:11:01 am »
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Also, VCE isn't purely about raw academic ability. It's all about playing the system. How is it that 8 kids from a single school end up with 50s in english, but brilliant english students from other schools end up with mid 40s? Sac ranks, luck on the day, generous examiners and writing to the study design are the ingredients for a high mark - not necessarily one's ability.
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FatnessFirst

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Re: Letter in today's Age.
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2010, 12:29:18 am »
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I got a question, why doesn't everyone just get the same SACs? (like how we get the same exams)
Wouldn't this be fair even though it takes time to set up and all.
I don't know about folios though


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Re: Letter in today's Age.
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2010, 12:31:18 am »
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How come she didn't get a high 30? unless everyone did pretty well

Chavi

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Re: Letter in today's Age.
« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2010, 12:32:17 am »
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I got a question, why doesn't everyone just get the same SACs? (like how we get the same exams)
Wouldn't this be fair even though it takes time to set up and all.
I don't know about folios though


good question. Becuase we want to avoid a cheating problem of myschool proportions. Let them rank kids on their own internally, by whatever means they deem necessary. VCAA will do the rest with the GAT and external exams
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Andiio

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Re: Letter in today's Age.
« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2010, 02:21:50 am »
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How do you effectively find your 'rank' amongst the entire cohort? If there are numerous classes, would you just ask around?

Does that mean if you effectively don't maintain a rank of 1, you honestly cannot get a really high + good score? :S
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MuggedByReality

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Re: Letter in today's Age.
« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2010, 10:48:53 am »
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It is unfortunate how many people don't realise how competitive VCE is, and the marks required for the scores they desire. It sounds as though she is in year 11 and this was her 3/4, so at least this can be a bit of a wake up call for next year. Many people are very quick to blame the system when things don't go their way, but if they actually understood how everything works, it could save a bit of surprise come results day. I think one of the big problems is that many teachers don't truly understand the system, and this can cause them to lull students into a false sense of security, or impart false expectations on them.

No joke, I was on the train the day of results and I heard a girl explain to her friend that "if someone got a better rank than you, but they didn't do as well - they get your ATAR and you get theirs" -   :uglystupid2: *massive facepalm*
A girl at my school thought that letter grades were all that mattered; upon hearing that the A+ cut-off for one her exams had been unusually low the previous year, she talked of how she'd have been "so annoyed" if she had got 100% on it, when a much lower mark would have sufficed for an A+
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