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January 01, 2026, 02:12:24 pm

Author Topic: your thoughts on this so called global warming propaganda  (Read 11057 times)  Share 

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Mao

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Re: your thoughts on this so called global warming propaganda
« Reply #135 on: April 23, 2009, 11:02:32 pm »
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unless we can take enough data from small enough intervals that avoid the butterfly effect... which is just impractical.
Not impractical, impossible. Let me introduce you to someone who may or may not be my friend, Heisenberg...

ahh, yes, of course. forgot about that.
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TrueLight

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Re: your thoughts on this so called global warming propaganda
« Reply #136 on: April 23, 2009, 11:15:28 pm »
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Lets not kid ourselves: there is no climate model complicated enough to explain this type of climate change with a great degree of certainty.

Agreed. The day computer models can accurately and correctly predict temperature to the nearest tenth of a dregree, exact wind speed, direction and change, and how much it will rain in the next week will they come close to accurately predicting climate change. Until then............


well here how it works according to the lecturers notes from last yr!!!!!........

global circulation models dice up the world into grid size boxes and the more boxes the more accurate, the choice of number of boxes is limited to computer power hence the longer the simulation the fewe grid boxes we can have
weather models run for a max of 10 or so days and climate models run for >100 years... that is why climate models have fewer grid boxes
the most advanced global weather forecast model has more than 75000000 grid boxes with a 20km horizontal resolution and 90 levels in vertical
one way of getting higher resotuion is to only run the model for a limited area. this requires the model fields to be prescribed at the boundary of that rea, usually from a gloval model simulation. this only works for 2-3 days after this the influnece of what happens outside the area becomes too large and the benefits of this internal high resolution are lost.
to determine the initial state for the model we employ a technique that optimally blends a short model forecast (6-12hrs) with observations (surface stations, ship observations, drifiting buoys, radiondes, proilers, aircraft, satellites) taken in that time interval...satellite data is most important in the southern hemisphere.

CHAOS
deterministic chaos is a feature of many nonlinear systems, including the atmosphere. it does not mean that things are random, but rather that if the initial value given to the equations is slightly different, the solutions can diverge significantly. this is called sensitivity to the initial conditions. each of the divergent solutions are still fully deterministic.

we dont know everything about the present day climate to certaintty!! chaos is therefore inevitable

Ensemble prediction
the initial conditions for our forecast are uncertain. due to the chatoc nature of the atmosphere, small erros in the initial state can lead to large erros in the forecast. techniques have been developed to estimate the uncertaintes in the initial state. using these estimates the model is run not just once but 50-100 times using different possible inital states. this is called ensemble predictions....(which is not done in australia yet...but places like japan...)





HERE IS MORE INFO...

physical models are dependant on our understanding of the physics...
statistical models... are based on observations tather than an understanding of the physics, which is useful when we don't understand the physics completely or can't solve the complete physics in a computer , eg. seasonal prediction..
often hard to isolate the statistics of one system since in nature feedbacks are always operating

global circulation models take into account atmosphere, ocean land, vegetation...
GCM is solved........- space and time give 4 dimensions x,y,z,t - sometimes use different dimension models to solve different problems eg. 1D energy budget models, 2D,3D,4D are used to attack different problems.

computational limitations, - like 1D radiative equilibrium model, equations need to be calculated at each grid point... the constraints are that supercomputers have limited power and you need results in a reasonable amount of time...say your supercomputer can do X computations per second. we require an answer in 1 week. then you can only afford around X * 6 *10^5 computations.... so we need more computer power!

more physics means more accurate predictions? more physics= more feedbacks, more feedbacks= more avenues for error... we know the physics is not perfect in these models yet we keep adding more processes to these models. this seriously undermines our ability to understand what is happening in these models eg the rapidly dieing amazon perhaps..

some known problems... Sub grid scale processes.. turbulend, clouds, evaporation etc... CLOUDS in nature are not square blocks!!!!
parameterisation. statiscal or resuced physical model of a processes. much of the variablity amongst different models are due to parameterisations...

how can we trust these models?
ensemble model runs, run the model many times..
intercomparison, compare different models
compare to past and present climate, try simulate past and present climate to which we have observations... does this mean we can trust them? probably not entirely i reckon

ensembles run a model many times with slightly different conditions, this give a range of solutions that define the chaos in the system!!! this gives you confidence in the forecast

there is much less certainty in precipitation projections than temperature!

comparison to past and present climate... these comprations offer the model makers an opportunity to tune the model parameterisations to match observations...

GCMS are more accurate on a global scale than smaller scales such as cities..

GCMS are useful so long as we recognize which statistcal they predict well.... not tornadoes!


So anyway yeah lots of processes to deal with in climate or weather models and there is always uncertainty!!!!!!!!
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Re: your thoughts on this so called global warming propaganda
« Reply #137 on: April 29, 2009, 02:15:53 pm »
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Hey has anyone heard of the global colding propaganda I've heard it on the weather report they said it's going to be very cold

Mao

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Re: your thoughts on this so called global warming propaganda
« Reply #138 on: April 29, 2009, 10:42:52 pm »
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Hey has anyone heard of the global colding propaganda I've heard it on the weather report they said it's going to be very cold

I have. Though it appears the weather is getting more extreme than either hot or cold... Not sure what implications that have though... (could it be global warming disrupting natural atmospheric cycle hence more extreme weather?)
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TrueLight

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Re: your thoughts on this so called global warming propaganda
« Reply #139 on: April 29, 2009, 10:53:35 pm »
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yeah enhanced global warming does disrupt natural atmospheric feedbacks....go read the ipcc report or something like that...
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Completed Bachelor of Science. Majored in Immunology and Microbiology.

“Who controls the past, controls the future. Who controls the present, controls the past.”
George Orwell, 1984.

"Terrorism is the best political weapon for nothing drives people harder than a fear of sudden death."
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“The bigger the lie, the more inclined people will be to believe it”
Adolf Hitler

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just

hard

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Re: your thoughts on this so called global warming propaganda
« Reply #140 on: April 29, 2009, 11:37:58 pm »
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Hey has anyone heard of the global colding propaganda I've heard it on the weather report they said it's going to be very cold

I have. Though it appears the weather is getting more extreme than either hot or cold... Not sure what implications that have though... (could it be global warming disrupting natural atmospheric cycle hence more extreme weather?)
i still think it's a natural cycle i mean we've seen worse in the past but the world hasn't ended. Even with things like pandemics, i hear a lot of the past gen adults who talk about sudden armogeddon and how every one is so evil that plagues are hitting us but it's all speculation and out of fear and so is this global warming. Politicians and business men have found a loop hole to exploit the communities weakness in believing whatever the media shouts at them to gain profit and take control of what can and cannot be sold, done and made. It's rubbish and until i see clear scientific proof that relates a global catastrophe is eminent if carbon dioxide rates keep on rising or that the ice sheets that are melting (which has been occurring for millions of year, not sure why they're suddenly making documentaries about it) are going to stop the flow of currents in the ocean due to the el nino effect (i think they call it); i will never touch a fucking hybrid car or electric car even if i had to walk, never install energy efficient electrical equipment, never touch solar panels and fuck the bullshit turn off the lights cause you know what? my lights are gona stay on long after Al Gore dies.

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Re: your thoughts on this so called global warming propaganda
« Reply #141 on: April 30, 2009, 10:11:24 am »
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Hey has anyone heard of the global colding propaganda I've heard it on the weather report they said it's going to be very cold

I have. Though it appears the weather is getting more extreme than either hot or cold... Not sure what implications that have though... (could it be global warming disrupting natural atmospheric cycle hence more extreme weather?)

Remember, climate change is based on trends, not individual events. Just because it is cold (and the coldest morning in eons) now, doesn't 'debunk' the climate change theory.
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marine ices

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Re: your thoughts on this so called global warming propaganda
« Reply #142 on: April 30, 2009, 11:01:39 am »
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 I heard that 2008 was the calmest year for hurricanes in a while, which [if true], doesn't refute the theory of AGW, of course, but is inconvenient for those who talked as though Hurricane Katrina was *definitely* a direct consequence of human activity.

wombifat

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Re: your thoughts on this so called global warming propaganda
« Reply #143 on: April 30, 2009, 08:43:11 pm »
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I think we can all agree that the weather is really random and nobody really knows much about it at all.

marine ices

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Re: your thoughts on this so called global warming propaganda
« Reply #144 on: May 01, 2009, 11:22:35 pm »
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I think we can all agree that the weather is really random and nobody really knows much about it at all.

 meh, I wouldn't be so cursory, myself. Common sense/the 'obvious' answer don't always lead you to the truth.

TrueLight

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Re: your thoughts on this so called global warming propaganda
« Reply #145 on: December 07, 2009, 01:32:05 am »
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Rand Paul on global warming- another perspective
also about the cap and trade and the coal industry

i do agree with him when he goes always question data

4:35- argh Al gore is stupid >.<  if i remember correctly when i did weather+climate the lecturer said this the first day lol  

p1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZU_eJnO-ZAQ
p2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4J9xlsMQROM&feature=related .... and then goes onto the economy and politics...
« Last Edit: December 07, 2009, 01:39:23 am by TrueLight »
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Completed Bachelor of Science. Majored in Immunology and Microbiology.

“Who controls the past, controls the future. Who controls the present, controls the past.”
George Orwell, 1984.

"Terrorism is the best political weapon for nothing drives people harder than a fear of sudden death."
Adolf Hitler

“The bigger the lie, the more inclined people will be to believe it”
Adolf Hitler

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just