Khalid

[bucket]

lmfao...'excalibur the wise'

[Mao]

If you so wish, "disbelief towards some people's values" was never limited to Excalibur.

You are not wrong in that Excalibur does not have the position of authority to force me to resign. However, you should also realise that his objection invalidates my ability to hold the moderation position. The conversation we had afterwards showed that I was wrong in many aspects. Even a blind man could see the cue to step down. He does not need a place of authority to be right in his request for me to resign. It was me who took away his freedom of speech [when I locked the thread he lost half an hour worth of reply (now I wonder if he has anything better to do than blast Khalid)]. He gave me an ultimatum, I respected it.

It is clear that I do not have a neutral and objective position in my moderation, and I will not embrace such a position. Kids should be treated as kids. I do not like it, I leave.

If this is the "misuse" of power, then I must dignify it as it opposes yourself and Excalibur. Realise that this started as nothing but a "Hey, stfu, no one cares if you are right on the Internet. Leave the kid alone." It only shows that some are willing to embrace "neutrality" and "objectivity" over treating a kid like a kid, and I stand unwavered by my double standards. I have said this to Excalibur, and I will say this to you now: This bullshit disgust me.

[Collin Li]

If you so wish, "disbelief towards some people's values" was never limited to Excalibur.

You are not wrong in that Excalibur does not have the position of authority to force me to resign. However, you should also realise that his objection invalidates my ability to hold the moderation position. The conversation we had afterwards showed that I was wrong in many aspects. Even a blind man could see the cue to step down. He does not need a place of authority to be right in his request for me to resign. It was me who took away his freedom of speech [when I locked the thread he lost half an hour worth of reply (now I wonder if he has anything better to do than blast Khalid)]. He gave me an ultimatum, I respected it.

Okay. So if you think you are wrong, how is this consistent with your goal to get Excalibur to "shut the fuck up"?

The only other global moderator who has more than half of an opinion on this issue is me. I have maintained a neutral policy, as a moderator. I have no qualms with your moderator actions (i.e.: closure of that thread), except minor things (like giving yourself final right to reply - just a formality).

I only took opposition to this announcement! What I find annoying is how you make this out to be such a complex political act. The reality is that there are nearly no internal politics in VCEnotes. It is a simple flat playing field - a system I would like to keep here.

It is clear that I do not have a neutral and objective position in my moderation, and I will not embrace such a position. Kids should be treated as kids. I do not like it, I leave.

If this is the "misuse" of power, then I must dignify it as it opposes yourself and Excalibur. Realise that this started as nothing but a "Hey, stfu, no one cares if you are right on the Internet. Leave the kid alone." It only shows that some are willing to embrace "neutrality" and "objectivity" over treating a kid like a kid, and I stand unwavered by my double standards. I have said this to Excalibur, and I will say this to you now: This bullshit disgust me.

That's your opinion, and all you're doing is trying to introduce your own agenda into moderation policy, while your position was really only about maths! You're trying to make a bargain with the public. Here I will show you that you're terribly wrong. You simply don't have the bargaining power you think you do. You do not have the power to sway the public. It is pathetic how you are trying to use your position to affect policy in such non-sequitur ways.

There are good reasons for this so-called "bullshit." I have outlined them here:

Let it be known that you are not unanimous in your support of the concept that underage people are unable to make responsible decisions. I don't believe, for example, that a 10 year old who murders, has no idea of his mischief and incorrectness. Sheltering kids and trying to get everyone to conform to this is not necessarily the best way. My point is not that we should go to the other extreme, but that it is really the parent's role to bring him up, not us.

Hence, we should not impose our opinions of child-rearing onto others in this forum. It is only to our inconvenience if we accept responsibility for his well-being. We do not. We cannot. It is impractical.

To accept your premise, Mao, is to reject years and years of the progression of youth rights and responsibilities. We don't necessarily accept either, and hence we will not favour any particular side.

[cara.mel]

Understand this

The reason why I posted this has two purposes

1. to make Excal shut the fuck up.

2. to show people like coblin there is such thing called "emotions", and not everything is so god damn analytical and rational.

I do not need a good reason to know to protect a youngling from sadistic "mature" (if I dare say) people. If that means there will be (have been) disputes over the way I manage(d) my boards, then so be it. The fancy title is not worth the trouble, especially when I know my opponent will have been incessant and sustained in the manner of approach.

My opinion of you has changed.
Enwiabe was online last night, so why are you still a maths moderator if you have now resigned?

or hell, even this morning would be a good time to do it:
It is currently 10:57am
enwiabe      10:51:49 AM     Viewing the board index of VCE Notes.
Mao      10:56:54 AM     Viewing the board index of VCE Notes.
You're both there, so resign already, given that you said you would.

[costargh]

I don't get the purpose of all this arguing (even though I've read the whole thread and seen why Mao has posted this thread and why Coblin is replying). But I still don't "get it" in the sense that this has been blown way out of proportion. I really don't see what Khalid is being protected from. Is he in any danger from people telling him not to infringe on copyright or telling him not to steal other peoples work? I would think that failing to tell him this would be more dangerous than enlightening him of the law and hence I don't see anything wrong in Exacl's actions.

 The only thing that I believe can be argued against is the way in which Excal has gone about his actions ie. his tone and the skills his used to try and emphasise a point. Even in that way, when you have a repeat offender, I think you have to take a different stance, regardless of age.

It's understandable that 10 year old kids may 'attention seeking' but I don't see why their age immunes them from the law or the rules of this forum (if any have been broken), especially considering the numerous times people have told Khlaid off and warned him not to do it. What does that show you? That the message isn't getting through to this kid? That he isn't taking the matter seriously? I don't believe in the whole "he's 10 so leave him alone" approach mainly because it worries me to see someone so defiant of the law, using other people's work to try and benefit himself (or at least his status on VN).

It's not so much what he has done now, but what I worry he will do in the future if he doesn't learn now what is right and wrong. I'll say that I download music off limewire so that's technically illegal right, but there's a difference between downloading music off limewire and stealing someones song and claiming for it to be your own. I feel that in the eyes of the law the latter is deemed more serious. No one here can say that they haven't done anything wrong ever, but usually when people do something wrong they learn a lession, and that doesn't seem to be happening here, hence you keep drilling it until they learn their lesson, not only for VN's benefit, but for HIS OWN benefit.

I'm not too familiar with the whole moderation policy, hierarchy etc but I will say that resigning from the mod team achieves nothing in my eyes. I don't see the purpose in it. You can have beliefs and illustrate your point and views without having to resort to resigning.

[Collin Li]

Thank you, costargh

That's what I've been trying to point out in my posts - that Mao is using this to grab attention and to showboat with his moderator position. This is an exaggeration on his part, and I'm glad more people can see this now.

Firstly, no one in the (global) moderation team even objected to his moderator actions. Secondly, to quit because you believe someone is wrong, just to shove it in their face is an irresponsible use of power, especially when his role (maths) is so irrelevant to the issue (children).

For example, I have been able to maintain my somewhat on-the-fringe beliefs without compromising moderator neutrality.

There really is no social hierarchy! That's what I wish to preserve. It is not the first time he has used his power to create a hostile climate. Think about his conversations with hard and orsel, where he created a "them and us" mentality ("we think this," when in reality it's not so unanimous).


One more thing about this:

Just because I am opposed to Mao here, it does not mean that I am opposed to him everywhere. That is, I am not condoning Excalibur's actions either. That entire argument has been left out of this thread (personal values). Here, I am just concerned with Mao's unnecessary entangling of personal viewpoints with power.

[orsel]

Think about his conversations with hard and orsel, where he created a "them and us" mentality ("we think this," when in reality it's not so unanimous).

Can't speak for hard, but I didn't really notice that the few days ago it happened. He did make unsupported accusations against me, but not in a way that brought in his mod powers as evidence of my ... condescension.

While I agree that children aren't immune to responsibility, this:

The only thing that I believe can be argued against is the way in which Excal has gone about his actions

There was never any reason to, essentially, tell him he's a little shit in every one of his threads, while acting as if you're somehow the god of the internet.

I can't say I applaud this sensationalist ultimatum of Mao's, but I support even less the attitude of someone else.

[Mao]

caramel: it is unfortunate that you feel that way.
Also, enwiabe has seen this thread. I do not know why he has not yet acted.

[hard]

i got to agree with coblin here to not on the basis of if you're resigning but why?

when i first joined up i was straight away labeled that "troller" by people like Mao and told to stop talking.

The fact is i see it ironic that you (Mao) are resigning due to the fact the people like excal are "breaching" their power when really you also did breach yours but no one said they'd resign.

Im not up for HOW excal went about taking action however the reasoning behind it i find to be acceptable. Showing someone the difference between right and wrong now, regardless of age, is better then putting on the smiley face and walking by. There's no use putting emotion of reasoning. Be rational about your actions.

I don't think you should resign for this reason Mao but if you were true to your word then why are you still moderator as caramel said? It is not up to enwiabe to decide your future here, it is your own.
But as i said, i don't think you should resign. You are a good moderator in my opinion and the reason for resigning i think is lame.

[ninwa]

Is it not up to enwiabe to get rid of his moderator status though?

Can you do it yourself?

[enwiabe]

Well this just snowballed whilst I was asleep. I'll talk to Mao later about this "resignation". This entire thread is just plain stupid and I should have had the foresight to close it last night when I saw it.