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Author Topic: Abortion Legislation - is it truly pro-choice?  (Read 31786 times)  Share 

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Collin Li

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Re: Abortion Legislation - is it truly pro-choice?
« Reply #255 on: July 13, 2009, 11:32:20 pm »
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I don't think it's simple:

Quoting myself before:
Quote
Additionally, such laws are largely unenforceable. I advocate self-reliance, and a medical system that does not remain fixed on archaic traditional means of delivering information - there needs to be room to innovate (using the Web 2.0 environment, as I suggested).

enwiabe

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Re: Abortion Legislation - is it truly pro-choice?
« Reply #256 on: July 13, 2009, 11:34:05 pm »
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The doctor is simply recommending a different doctor, they are not recommending someone to do the abortion.

Quote: 8 Obligations of registered health practitioner who
has conscientious objection
(1) ... the practitioner must—
(a) inform the woman that the practitioner has a conscientious objection to abortion; and
(b) refer the woman to another registered health practitioner in the same regulated health profession who the practitioner knows does not have a conscientious objection to abortion.
If the doctor referred to does not have an objection to abortion, surely that's equivalent to recommending someone to do the abortion?

That's a ludicrous assumption to make. That doctor might well help the woman in question to realise a method by which they can have the baby. By offering adoption avenues, information on government help etc.

And yes, also the option of terminating.

But they don't KNOW that that's what will happen. The non-morally-compromised doctor will hear the woman's story, just like the morally compromised one did, and advise her on her situation. This does NOT mean an abortion. This means other options.

Collin Li

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Re: Abortion Legislation - is it truly pro-choice?
« Reply #257 on: July 13, 2009, 11:34:27 pm »
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There are some things legislation and regulation will not solve.

Exactly, even the mandatory announcement of religious bias that you proposed (and that I agreed with) is unenforceable. Unfortunately, self-reliance is really the only solution, and hoping that you have a network of friends that can provide helpful experiences and a wealth of knowledge.

enwiabe

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Re: Abortion Legislation - is it truly pro-choice?
« Reply #258 on: July 13, 2009, 11:35:00 pm »
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I don't think it's simple:

Quoting myself before:
Quote
Additionally, such laws are largely unenforceable. I advocate self-reliance, and a medical system that does not remain fixed on archaic traditional means of delivering information - there needs to be room to innovate (using the Web 2.0 environment, as I suggested).

The solution itself is simple. The execution of the solution becomes complicated when considering the factors that you stated above.

ninwa

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Re: Abortion Legislation - is it truly pro-choice?
« Reply #259 on: July 13, 2009, 11:36:16 pm »
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Ninwa it's called professionalism, doctors should put the wellbeing of their patients first when they are at work, this does not mean they can't be catholic.
You never answered my point on this.

As for professionalism:
Quote from: Wikipedia
Obstetrics (from the Latin obstare, "to stand by") is the surgical specialty dealing with the care of women and their children during pregnancy, childbirth and the puerperium.
The baby is the doctor's patient too. What about its wellbeing? Catholic doctors would place more importance on the baby's wellbeing rather than the mothers per their beliefs re: sanctity of human life (please correct me if I'm wrong, Catholic VN members). And thus even referring the mother to a doctor who will perform an abortion goes against this.
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ninwa

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Re: Abortion Legislation - is it truly pro-choice?
« Reply #260 on: July 13, 2009, 11:37:07 pm »
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That doctor might well help the woman in question to realise a method by which they can have the baby. By offering adoption avenues, information on government help etc.
And why wouldn't a Catholic doctor against abortion - i.e. FOR having the baby - also go through those options?

The only extra option a doctor without the "conscientious objection" could provide is abortion.
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enwiabe

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Re: Abortion Legislation - is it truly pro-choice?
« Reply #261 on: July 13, 2009, 11:37:16 pm »
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There are some things legislation and regulation will not solve.

Exactly, even the mandatory announcement of religious bias that you proposed (and that I agreed with) is unenforceable. Unfortunately, self-reliance is really the only solution, and hoping that you have a network of friends that can provide helpful experiences and a wealth of knowledge.

Well you can choose to hope that this woman has friends wiht her best interests at heart. For all you know, she might have a dropkick boyfriend who wants her to have the baby so he can get the baby bonus. For all you know, her friends don't know shit and only worsen her situation by passing judgment.

That's a pretty questionable hope to impose on every single woman with an unwanted pregnancy. How can you forsake a woman like that? Self-reliance cannot be assumed where soundness of mind is questionable.

enwiabe

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Re: Abortion Legislation - is it truly pro-choice?
« Reply #262 on: July 13, 2009, 11:38:02 pm »
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That doctor might well help the woman in question to realise a method by which they can have the baby. By offering adoption avenues, information on government help etc.
And why wouldn't a Catholic doctor against abortion - i.e. FOR having the baby - also go through those options?


EDIT: oops, double negative =_=

I never said he wouldn't...

rhjc.1991

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Re: Abortion Legislation - is it truly pro-choice?
« Reply #263 on: July 13, 2009, 11:38:32 pm »
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The only exception in the sinfulness of the abortion procedure is, if my memory serves me right, when the mother's life in danger physically.

Catholics believe that:
1. Accidental pregnancy could have been prevented by strictly adhering to "No Sex Before Marriage"
2. In cases of rape, a women is left with scars after abortion, cure comes when she has the child. This has been shown in some real life testimonials.
3. All in all, a crime (ie. rape) does not justify a "murder".

However, one must be aware that Catholics view of abortion is constantly under review. According to the original canon, ANY abortion is considered sinful but views have changed since.

To answer your question about referral, such acts are considered to be "assisting" in abortion. This means that a doctor who refers the woman is considered nearly as guilty as another who performs the procedure.

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Re: Abortion Legislation - is it truly pro-choice?
« Reply #264 on: July 13, 2009, 11:40:25 pm »
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The medical system needs to be regulated, by legislating this requirement for doctors that have moral objections it ensures that the patient is able to still make the choice. Without this regulation certain patients maybe told no by the doctor and offered no further advice, if the patient is already vulnerable this situation would apply further pressure and could lead to other problems for the patient ie, depression.
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ninwa

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Re: Abortion Legislation - is it truly pro-choice?
« Reply #265 on: July 13, 2009, 11:40:34 pm »
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I never said he wouldn't...
So why is it a ludicrous assumption that referring to a doctor without a conscientious objection to abortion is equivalent to referring them to someone who will perform an abortion? Since the only extra option which the Catholic doctor cannot provide is abortion?
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rhjc.1991

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Re: Abortion Legislation - is it truly pro-choice?
« Reply #266 on: July 13, 2009, 11:41:09 pm »
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In case people missed this, I will post it up again:

Thats very naive suggesting that doctors only perform abortions because it is "high paying"
I am sure that there are doctors who perform abortion for many other reasons than the pay.
I think you misinterpreted me: I meant that there are many non-Catholic doctors available for the procedure.

With the abortion case, I would like to straighten out some of my beliefs:
1. Women should be allowed to choose to undergo abortion LEGALLY and SAFELY
2. Although I oppose abortion where the conception could have been prevented (ie. the child was conceived of consensual relationship between two adults), I believe that this is a matter between the couple and especially the woman, since she is the one having the baby. After all, no matter how much us men say we empathise with the pains and aftermath of a child-birth, we will never really understand it. As a man, I understand that my understanding of pregnancy, stress of abortions is, and will always be, limited
3. Abortions are generally seriously thought about and 99% time, not a trivial decision by the potential mother
4. In some situations, the father escapes responsibility, and in the others, the mother cannot guarantee 100% support from the father for the next 18 years. For woman, it becomes obligation once the baby's born, for men, it is slightly more obligating than free will.
5. Giving up the child for adoption can be a painful process, especially for the mother, especially after all the labour and 10 months bonding she had with the child. Where she is in no position to be able to bring up the child, she will be emotionally scarred for life.
6. Therefore, the woman should always be given the final decision.

With forcing Catholic doctors to perform abortion:
1. Women have access to many doctors who are willing to conduct the abortion procedure who are not Catholic
2. Many Catholic doctors become obstericians to deliver babies which is considered a holy process
3. Abortion procedure is NOT the main role of an obsterician
4. Women would receive far better treatment, both emotionally and physically, from a willing doctor. Unwilling Catholic doctors are more likely to make them feel more guilty about the procedure and far less likely to reassure them about their rights as a woman
5. Many women who are considering abortion become emotionally unstable and a strong emotional support is needed from everyone, including the doctor, in order to not psychologically scar them for life.

Catholic doctors reaction:
1. Many doctors would be psychologically scarred due to having betrayed their religious doctrine
2. Many doctors are likely to quit, resulting in less obstetricians, which would mean less available doctors to meet women's other needs (eg. childbirth) or replacement with second-rate doctors

Political reaction:
1. This new legislation will be opposed heavily by the Catholic Church
2. Potential high-profile legal case, which would cost tax payers a lot of money which could have been spent better elsewhere
3. Since Catholic voters form a large percentage of the Australian population, the Government would need to do something in order them to recoup their general support
4. The Government will be forced to openly condemn the Church, which would lead to discrimination of Catholics in general, and may earn the Church antagonism from women's rights groups
5. Many who do not understand the Church will be quick to follow suit and this may create a wave of hatred towards the religion, leading to discrimination

As somebody have mentioned earlier, even the act of referral is a sin in the Catholic doctrine. For proof, we can see how Pontius Pilate is still condemned for Jesus's crucifixion even though he clearly stated that he does not endorse it.

But of course, now that we have legalised abortion, it would only be logical for the government to force the Catholic doctors to refer the patients to someone who will perform the procedure since after all, we want to ensure best support for the expectant women, right?

Well, the following are my thoughts:
1. Instead of forcing Catholic doctors to refer, they are better off having mandatory pregnancy advisors in every major hospital. Costs too much? If they can throw away millions of dollars for a useless internet censorship program, and potential millions more as they prepare to battle against Catholic Church, they can afford this. Also, this would increase jobs, and be an efficient way of stimulating the economy.
2. Catholics doctors oppose abortion. What convinces the government to think that such doctors would know many good aborting doctors? If they are just going to refer them to some other random doctor, the woman could have just done the same thing by visiting major clinics with non-Catholic doctors.

In conclusion, the Government should know where to draw the fine line between supporting women's rights and invading the freedom of others. Both can co-exist, and the Government, and some members of VCE Notes, should not pretend that the Catholics are in some where violating women's rights.

enwiabe

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Re: Abortion Legislation - is it truly pro-choice?
« Reply #267 on: July 13, 2009, 11:43:14 pm »
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I never said he wouldn't...
So why is it a ludicrous assumption that referring to a doctor without a conscientious objection to abortion is equivalent to referring them to someone who will perform an abortion? Since the only extra option which the Catholic doctor cannot provide is abortion?

Because in the case of the doctor, she's not offered the alternative of terminating the baby. In such a consultation it would be discussed. Only by airing that alternative in the open can it be shot down or picked up. Discussing abortion, how it works, what it means etc. may well influence the woman to not have it. Had you considered that option? But, of course, the religious doctor cannot even entertain such a discussion.

Collin Li

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Re: Abortion Legislation - is it truly pro-choice?
« Reply #268 on: July 13, 2009, 11:45:08 pm »
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I'm going to go a bit off-topic, but it is relevant to the trust and position of power of a doctor.

People really need to think for themselves. Please have a read of my story about moral hazard (in my signature). Think like my mum, who would question the way the meat she bought was handled - even though it was legal! We can't assume the government is going to, or can protect us in each and every situation.

And having one doctor that you trust is placing a monopoly on your life. It's as stupid as trusting the government to put laws in place to protect you from your own stupidity. One has to tread their own path in life, and cannot take for granted the quality of care that you receive from your doctor, your government, or even your parents (as we all have come to figure out in our teenage years, probably).

But there's too much to look out for, not enough time to know everything about everything - that's the imperfect world for you - but there are entrepreneurs out there toiling for your attention, trying to make the world an easier place for you. By making information more potent and accurate, they will make the world an easier place to live in. This is the kind of world we should understand we live in.

enwiabe

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Re: Abortion Legislation - is it truly pro-choice?
« Reply #269 on: July 13, 2009, 11:47:44 pm »
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Collin, you never even RESPONDED to my point about soundness of mind.

You read it, yet you chose to ignore it.

Your inability to sympathise with people in compromised mental states is quite saddening. How can you honestly have compared your mum buying meat to a girl with an unwanted pregnancy?

How can you assume clear mental faculties of a girl experiencing an emotional trauma? A certain burden of responsibility, here, lies with the carer. The doctor.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2009, 11:49:35 pm by admin »