Religion

[hard]

Sure, there are many things we do not understand, and most likely never will, but simply asserting a 'supernatural god' as explanation, not only explains precisely nothing, but is without ANY supporting evidence.

okay then, prove god does not exist.

and the abrahamic religions are no different; perhaps a little more effective in their continuation of dogmas, however they will to soon vanish.

I dearly hope you're joking

I feel deeply embarrassed and sorry for those who hold a belief in supernatural daddies, mabye if you lived before the 18th century i could empathize, however its the 21st century...and its simply shameful.

shameful in having a religious belief?

[hard]

Again i lay my argument on faith, that is all religion is based on. I can't prove or disapprove gods existence and neither can you but i choose to have faith and i willingly pursue that. And this isn't based on "oh wow i can use this as a get out of jail card if there is heaven when i die" but rather it is a deeper understanding that only one can experience whom has strong belief in the existence of god and the accuracy of ones religious teachings.

Argue otherwise but again you have no science to disapprove gods existence and i can't prove gods existence but faith is what drives me to believe.

[ATyler]

'hard' you missed the entire point of my point, please re read the first sentance.
DOES A BIBLICAL, TRADITION GOD ACTUALLY EXIST: Haha, no.
DOES A HIGHER FORCE ACTUALLY EXIST: Extremely unlikley, but technically one cannot answer this question equivocally due to the restrictive nature of the human mind.
IS THERE ANY GOOD REASON TO BELIEVE IN A GOD OR LIVE ONES LIFE AS IF ONE DOES? Big fucking no.

You ask me to 'prove that god does not exist'.
Firstly, the burden of evidence relies on the individual who proposes the theory.
Secondly, reasoned scientific evidence is in direct contradiction of a religious scripture and thinking.
I can simply state 'invisible fairies exist in my backyard because i have 'faith' in their existence, you can't disprove that!!! haha aren't i a smart!....ERRR NO THANKS

I meant it is a shame that people still cling to a belief in a sky daddy and wish to be its play thing.

[excal]

all those nights when daddy belted you with that bible.

Excuse me? I find that a highly insulting ad hominem attack.

My discussion was based on the presentation of evidence and how much the debate has become polarised to the point where either side have almost become beliefs of their own. I have not presented a point of view per se, except for the bit you decided to cut out which actually suggests that I don't hold the opinion that you purport me to hold.

[hard]

'hard' you missed the entire point of my point, please re read the first sentance.
DOES A BIBLICAL, TRADITION GOD ACTUALLY EXIST: Haha, no.
DOES A HIGHER FORCE ACTUALLY EXIST: Extremely unlikley, but technically one cannot answer this question equivocally due to the restrictive nature of the human mind.
IS THERE ANY GOOD REASON TO BELIEVE IN A GOD OR LIVE ONES LIFE AS IF ONE DOES? Big fucking no.

You ask me to 'prove that god does not exist'.
Firstly, the burden of evidence relies on the individual who proposes the theory.
Secondly, reasoned scientific evidence is in direct contradiction of a religious scripture and thinking.
I can simply state 'invisible fairies exist in my backyard because i have 'faith' in their existence, you can't disprove that!!! haha aren't i a smart!....ERRR NO THANKS

I meant it is a shame that people still cling to a belief in a sky daddy and wish to be its play thing.

no i understood your point. May i add, who are you to striaght away claim that god doesn't exist. Oh sorry ATyler, i forgot, you know everything.

Furthermore, you say that there is no reason to believe in god. That i must disagree with. Let's take chirstianty for example*, roughly 2 billion people are christians and modern christians theorietically should live their life according to gods will which ultimately promotes peace, love and order. This also applies for islam, buddhism, judaism etc etc all or most have a higher force whom promotes love peace etc.

To answer your question. "IS THERE ANY GOOD REASON TO BELIEVE IN A GOD OR LIVE ONES LIFE AS IF ONE DOES?" I say yes. What do you place your morals and values on without a higher being? Why should you not murder your neighbour i mean there is no such thing as sin afterall? why not rebel against society and go on a murder spree since the worst that can happen is rotting in the ground which you are going to anyway? God serves an important service within society and i don't think you can see that.

And no this isn't a theory ATyler, it's faith. Something you wouldn't understand since everything has to be proven.

Do you exist? If yes then prove it.
And your fairies analogy is lame. If you believe in fairies that is your belief and i have no reason to care.

[excal]

Do you exist? If yes then prove it.

Philosophically, you're digging yourself a deep hole here...

And your fairies analogy is lame. If you believe in fairies that is your belief and i have no reason to care.

But I like this argument better.

[bturville]

What do you place your morals and values on without a higher being? Why should you not murder your neighbour i mean there is no such thing as sin afterall? why not rebel against society and go on a murder spree since the worst that can happen is rotting in the ground which you are going to anyway? God serves an important service within society and i don't think you can see that.

As Einstein said, "If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed."

I could not disagree with you more strongly on your contention that we need to believe in god to have morals. If you learned tomorrow that god definitively did not exist, would you become a thief, murderer and rapist? If not, then your point doesn't hold up too well.

[ATyler]

O shit man i didn't relise u have a learning disability......you think that fact that their a multiple religions claiming to be right is evidence that your particular religion is right....HAHAH..seriously man sorry ill use really small words from now on...
You suggest that humans get our morality from scripture...YOU ARE WRONG...our species obtain our alturistic tendencies from natural selection, and furthermore the the twisted morality propogated by scripture is counter to todays standards; it condones slavery, sacrifice, and orders the death of an individual if they work on a particular day, or chose to have sex before marrige. What you are doing is selecting passages, 'cherry picking' parts of the bible that accord with, and hence support existance of, an underlying morality system (which is the product of natural and social evolution).
Are you telling me the only reason your not murdering your neighbors is because you fear a sky god? religion..o...how noble!, almost as noble as female circumsicion and the inquestion, and o 9/11!. Furthermore even if i conceeded that without a belief in god humans would self destruct and become mass murderers this would not add one smidgen of support to the idea of god actually existing.

i don't care if you dont care what i think, but some people, like myself, care about whats true.

[sxcalexc]

To answer your question. "IS THERE ANY GOOD REASON TO BELIEVE IN A GOD OR LIVE ONES LIFE AS IF ONE DOES?" I say yes. What do you place your morals and values on without a higher being? Why should you not murder your neighbour i mean there is no such thing as sin afterall? why not rebel against society and go on a murder spree since the worst that can happen is rotting in the ground which you are going to anyway? God serves an important service within society and i don't think you can see that.

I think you'll find that atheists tend to (in general) have a higher moral scope than most other people I know. This is just from my personal experience, and of course is not a complete fact. What is a fact is that the jail-rate of non-religious is far far lower compared to their percentage of presence in society. Where as other groups ie. Christians tend to have a roughly equal percentage of imprisonment to their percentage of presence.

Moral tendencies are innate and are not formed at all by religion. You may be wondering why an atheist would adhere to morals if they are not being forced to by a higher power. This is because they are, generally, good for the sake of being good. This actually tends to result in a stronger grasp of ethical ideas, as they are being good, not because they are being told to, but because they know it is the right thing to do. Again, this is innate and is a quality possessed by all sane people.

Also @ ATyler, you can debate religion without being patronising to those of other beliefs. If your arguments are resolute, they will do the talking for you, per se.

And yes! That was the quote I was looking for bturville! It echoes vast truths.
"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed."
Einstein truly has some great insights into subject areas other than physics, although he was PRO at that, indeed.

[bturville]

i don't care if you dont care what i think, but some people, like myself, care about whats true.

And I don't care if you don't care what I think, but some people (like the majority I would guess) are probably thinking you are being a condescending arsehole right about now.

[ATyler]

but you can just tell that these people hold these pathetic little arguments with such high prestige in their heads; as the 'ultimate knock down argument agiasnt atheism' when the debate is long over. Science 1. Religion 0................i find it amusing how none of the 'religous' posters ever refute or actually attempt to argue points raise but just simply say stuff like ' i dont care', 'matter or faith'. If you take that view, go for it by all means, but don't expect any sort of 'respect' or lip service because it is underserved...and sxcalexc man get over yourself its an internet forum; dont get all offended by people having a good arguement. I'm being condescing?? Your the ones saying YOU know what god wants, that "It's Something you wouldn't understand", im just droppin the facts..

[hard]

it condones slavery, sacrifice, and orders the death of an individual if they work on a particular day, or chose to have sex before marrige. What you are doing is selecting passages

you my friend have a very distorted view of the bible. Show me were it states that if you work on a particular day or have sex before marriage you will die?

Are you telling me the only reason your not murdering your neighbors is because you fear a sky god?  

no. I live my life based on the values and teachings of my religious beliefs. Also i do not see that an atheist does not have any more or less morals than a religious person. However, i do believe that it is religion that has created the structure and order of modern society.
And 9/11... pathetic.

care about whats true

okay then, what is true? If you care so much about the truth, surely you must know what the truth is?

[bturville]

I'm being condescing?? Your the ones saying YOU know what god wants, that "It's Something you wouldn't understand", im just droppin the facts..

Most people would call "i didn't relise u have a learning disability" and "I feel deeply embarrassed and sorry for those who hold a belief in supernatural daddies" pretty condescending. Not to mention your tone

you my friend have a very distorted view of the bible. Show me were it states that if you work on a particular day or have sex before marriage you will die?

The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever.  It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy.  Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy.  Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community.  Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest.  I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.'  (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)

and

But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house.  Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst.  (Deuteronomy  22:20-21 NAB)

[sxcalexc]

However, i do believe that it is religion that has created the structure and order of modern society.

Whilst this may have some truth to it, personally, I don't think it is longer necessary as a moral structure. It is now somewhat outdated in its scope. We now have a complex legal system which is reflective of what we deem to be ethically right or wrong. Any gaps left can be filled in by our innate morality and set as an example by our family/friends (passing it on generation to generation). To be honest, humans no longer require religion to 'control' the general populace.

Having said that, I have no problem with individual, philosophical, belief in a deity. I just think that religion as an organisation has more power to do harm than good; as evidenced by the majority of wars in the past (that have largely been fuelled by religion). I'm not saying there wouldn't be problems without organised religion, I just contend that it gives another reason to hold animosity and unfortunately in extreme circumstances hatred, towards our peers.

[ATyler]

'Hard', Sorry to rape your reality but you are wrong..........

"At that time the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he went throughout the land of Gilead and Manasseh, including Mizpah in Gilead, and led an army against the Ammonites.  And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD. He said, "If you give me victory over the Ammonites, I will give to the LORD the first thing coming out of my house to greet me when I return in triumph.  I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."

"The one who has stolen what was set apart for destruction will himself be burned with fire, along with everything he has, for he has broken the covenant of the LORD and has done a horrible thing in Israel."  (Joshua 7:15 NLT)

"Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods.  In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully.  If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock.  Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it.  Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God.  That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt.  Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction.  Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you.  He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors.  "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him."  (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

    However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you.  You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land.  You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance.  You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.  (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

o shit THIS IS THE BEST TEACHING OF MORALITY YOUR GOD CAN PRODUCE....HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHA


sorry but this last one is a keeper...a real gem of biblical morality:

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished.  If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.  (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)