Who believes in evolution?

[enwiabe]

Also the fact that Darwin became a christian is pretty solid proof that evolution does not exist.

Because there couldn't possibly be any other reason one would become a Christian except to signify their disbelief in the theory of evolution ... ?

no i wasnt saying that, but the fact he created the theory, then through further scientific research discovering his "theory" was not correct but christianity was, is a significant point. I'm a christian myself and IMO i believe evolution is ridiculous, however if anyone wishes to believe in that theory then good for them.

Actually, Darwin was born Christian and over the course of his life became agnostic (after his discovery of the theory of Evolution). There is a myth that on his deathbed he reverted to christianity, but this was actually largely promulgated by the Catholic church in a pathetic, desperate attempt to discredit Darwin.

It has since been debunked as a lie by both his children and many historians. Perhaps you were fed this lie by someone attempting to brainwash you into believing your religion, but if you do some googling, you will quickly find that Darwin died an agonstic, and an outspoken critic of the bible as an absolute history.

[ninwa]

Like this better??
'Belief in God requires faith and a personal test, there is no communal test'

When I said 'no test' with relation to religion, I meant there is no universal evidence. One mans 'test' will not satisfy anothers skepticism, because it is supernatural it does not fit in with general world views and is thus rejected by everyone who has not had personal proof.

Belief comes from understanding the 'proof'(personal or communal) for yourself. Where this proof comes from is different for all things. With religion to understand for yourself you must in some way witness God, be this an act or communication or anything else, the main thing is the personal experience must provide rock solid evidence to you that God is real, if you do not have this you stand no chance of continuing belief.

There must be strong communal proof for any scientific hypothesis, as it must withstand the scrutiny of the scientific community. What happens with religion cannot happen with scientific hypotheses, you must find strong evidence for your ideas in order to be able to show others that your ideas are correct/the best explanation for unexplained occurrences or better than other explanations.
i.e. if a monkey spirit came and told you it is your ancestor it may make you believe but it will mean nothing except lower credibility amongst scientists and probably a straight jacket.
This applies to evolution you must either understand why you believe it by considering the evidence yourself or you just trust all the scientist(majority) who agree.

All belief requires some kind of personal 'test' whether this test can be shared is where logic(fit in with common sense and is natural comes in, all scientific proof must be logical(shareable), all religious proof is not logical(cannot be shared to have same effect)
It is this difference in nature of scientific and spiritual understanding that allows them to work together.

That was confusing ... are you saying that any "proof" that a god exists (and by extension, therefore, that creationism is true) is limited to each believer's personal experiences?

Evolution is regarded as an accurate scientific hypothesis because it is supported by a range of evidence which anyone, who wanted to, would be able to observe (e.g. fossils, carbon dating, whatever).

I think by "communal proof" you mean the process of corroboration of scientific results which all point to the same hypothesis. However, nobody can observe your own memories of your own experiences except you. Your own personal "proof" cannot possibly be corroborated.

[Glockmeister]

I haven't read what other people have said but excuse me if i have repeated what has already been said. If evolution does exist, then why aren't apes and monkeys still transforming, how did they just stop? also Darwin didnt even believe what he made up, he was shocked that people believed him. Also the fact that Darwin became a christian is pretty solid proof that evolution does not exist.

A few posts ago I've gave the example of organisms that we can observe undergoing evolution. Bacteria (e.g. E. Coli), though various process can gain antibiotic resistance. Bacteria with resistance to say Streptomycin, will be able to survive when exposed to an environment of  Streptomycin antibiotics, whereas other bacteria would die off. Over several lifetimes (which for bacteria such as E. Coli is quite short), you would see more and more of Streptomycin Resistant strains. This gives rise to the sorts of antibiotic resistance that you can see in hospitals and communities alike.

Remember to talk about evolution, you're talking about lifetimes, not time absolutely. Humans can live for about 80 or so years. It would take ages before being able to see the sorts of changes that you can see very quickly in say E. Coli.

[excal]

Like this better??
'Belief in God requires faith and a personal test, there is no communal test'

When I said 'no test' with relation to religion, I meant there is no universal evidence. One mans 'test' will not satisfy anothers skepticism, because it is supernatural it does not fit in with general world views and is thus rejected by everyone who has not had personal proof.

Belief comes from understanding the 'proof'(personal or communal) for yourself. Where this proof comes from is different for all things. With religion to understand for yourself you must in some way witness God, be this an act or communication or anything else, the main thing is the personal experience must provide rock solid evidence to you that God is real, if you do not have this you stand no chance of continuing belief.

There must be strong communal proof for any scientific hypothesis, as it must withstand the scrutiny of the scientific community. What happens with religion cannot happen with scientific hypotheses, you must find strong evidence for your ideas in order to be able to show others that your ideas are correct/the best explanation for unexplained occurrences or better than other explanations.
i.e. if a monkey spirit came and told you it is your ancestor it may make you believe but it will mean nothing except lower credibility amongst scientists and probably a straight jacket.
This applies to evolution you must either understand why you believe it by considering the evidence yourself or you just trust all the scientist(majority) who agree.

All belief requires some kind of personal 'test' whether this test can be shared is where logic(fit in with common sense and is natural comes in, all scientific proof must be logical(shareable), all religious proof is not logical(cannot be shared to have same effect)
It is this difference in nature of scientific and spiritual understanding that allows them to work together.

The logic of this argument fails with the first sentence. A 'personal' test cannot be proof that something is absolute fact. Let's take this for an example:

"I believe that the engine powers the tyres on an aircraft" (my 'faith' in that fact)
"I have seen that when I apply power to the engine, the aircraft moves on its tyres" (my 'personal' test seemingly proving that fact)

When in fact, the engine creates thrust which moves the aircraft that moves the tyres.

The point I'm trying to make is that personal 'tests' can and are flawed. It has been well established that group decision making is often better than individual decision making.

Also, the logic of your post seems to suggests that a belief of creationism and evolution can co-exist in the same person at the same time. I'm pretty sure that doublethink takes a bit more effort than that.

[TrueLight]

I haven't read what other people have said but excuse me if i have repeated what has already been said. If evolution does exist, then why aren't apes and monkeys still transforming, how did they just stop? also Darwin didnt even believe what he made up, he was shocked that people believed him. Also the fact that Darwin became a christian is pretty solid proof that evolution does not exist.

A few posts ago I've gave the example of organisms that we can observe undergoing evolution. Bacteria (e.g. E. Coli), though various process can gain antibiotic resistance. Bacteria with resistance to say Streptomycin, will be able to survive when exposed to an environment of  Streptomycin antibiotics, whereas other bacteria would die off. Over several lifetimes (which for bacteria such as E. Coli is quite short), you would see more and more of Streptomycin Resistant strains. This gives rise to the sorts of antibiotic resistance that you can see in hospitals and communities alike.

Remember to talk about evolution, you're talking about lifetimes, not time absolutely. Humans can live for about 80 or so years. It would take ages before being able to see the sorts of changes that you can see very quickly in say E. Coli.

this is true, that on small scale changes like that do occur but I dont think you can equate that to an ape turning into a human

you can theorise that it does but no ones gonna live that long lol so no one actually knows

[Glockmeister]

I haven't read what other people have said but excuse me if i have repeated what has already been said. If evolution does exist, then why aren't apes and monkeys still transforming, how did they just stop? also Darwin didnt even believe what he made up, he was shocked that people believed him. Also the fact that Darwin became a christian is pretty solid proof that evolution does not exist.

A few posts ago I've gave the example of organisms that we can observe undergoing evolution. Bacteria (e.g. E. Coli), though various process can gain antibiotic resistance. Bacteria with resistance to say Streptomycin, will be able to survive when exposed to an environment of  Streptomycin antibiotics, whereas other bacteria would die off. Over several lifetimes (which for bacteria such as E. Coli is quite short), you would see more and more of Streptomycin Resistant strains. This gives rise to the sorts of antibiotic resistance that you can see in hospitals and communities alike.

Remember to talk about evolution, you're talking about lifetimes, not time absolutely. Humans can live for about 80 or so years. It would take ages before being able to see the sorts of changes that you can see very quickly in say E. Coli.

this is true, that on small scale changes like that do occur but I dont think you can equate that to an ape turning into a human

you can theorise that it does but no ones gonna live that long lol so no one actually knows

Well to be able to logically claim that, you'd have to suggest a mechanism that could 'block' that process from happening, because the same thing happens in apes and humans*. Otherwise it'd be just a very logically poor argument to suggest that evolution does not explain the diversity of species that we see too.


*Sort of. Genetic recombination does occur in meiosis where differing chromosomes from father and mother combine to create progeny that is distinct from both mother and father.

[ninwa]

this is true, that on small scale changes like that do occur but I dont think you can equate that to an ape turning into a human

you can theorise that it does but no ones gonna live that long lol so no one actually knows

Why not? Why can't such "small scale" changes have occurred gradually over millions of years? What makes humans so special that they are the only organisms on earth who don't evolve? I would refer you back to dcc's post on the pure arrogance of this contention.

Didn't god apparently make the animals too? In fact, all living things? So technically these bacteria shouldn't have been able to evolve.

Theres a wealth of evidence to support the idea of animal evolution, like.. uh... vestigial structures... (I think? It's been a long time since I did biology. Help, anyone here who knows biology! )

you can theorise that it does but no ones gonna live that long lol so no one actually knows

You don't NEED to live that long to get a good idea. Fossils? Carbon dating?

No one may know for sure, but there sure is a lot more evidence for evolution than there is for creationism. Though if anyone can prove that the entire human species was magically created by some supernatural being, please feel free to.

[TrueLight]

thats true that that occurs to give us different humans but are are genes gonna recombine to turn us back into apes over the next century... no way rubbish i say

[TrueLight]

OMG how many times to i have to say i dont think god plopped us on the planet magically!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! last time i will say it

[ninwa]

OMG how many times to i have to say i dont think god plopped us on the planet magically!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! last time i will say it

So if you don't believe in creationism, or evolution, then how do you think we got here?

Please don't tell me it's this: http://credomutwa.com/2008/08/big-bang-theory-challenged-new-theory-on-the-origins-of-the-universe-and-humankind-surfaces/

[TrueLight]

IM NOT THAT SURE! but i do think theres a god!!!!! and besides let me post this again.... there are many interesting theories...have u watched kymatica and the like?....all this energy stuff....anyway

post from earlier....quoting ron paul

[evolution]"because it doesn't change the nature, the only thing that changes the nature of our life is our understanding of about what personal liberty is, and restraining the government and making sure we have a government that will never restrain you in making a discussion on these topics."


wow that article was strange...

[clinton_09]

Also the fact that Darwin became a christian is pretty solid proof that evolution does not exist.

Because there couldn't possibly be any other reason one would become a Christian except to signify their disbelief in the theory of evolution ... ?

no i wasnt saying that, but the fact he created the theory, then through further scientific research discovering his "theory" was not correct but christianity was, is a significant point. I'm a christian myself and IMO i believe evolution is ridiculous, however if anyone wishes to believe in that theory then good for them.

Actually, Darwin was born Christian and over the course of his life became agnostic (after his discovery of the theory of Evolution). There is a myth that on his deathbed he reverted to christianity, but this was actually largely promulgated by the Catholic church in a pathetic, desperate attempt to discredit Darwin.

It has since been debunked as a lie by both his children and many historians. Perhaps you were fed this lie by someone attempting to brainwash you into believing your religion, but if you do some googling, you will quickly find that Darwin died an agonstic, and an outspoken critic of the bible as an absolute history.

I wasnt brainwashed into my religion like in a cult. i chose my religion

[m@tty]

That was confusing ... are you saying that any "proof" that a god exists (and by extension, therefore, that creationism is true) is limited to each believer's personal experiences?

Yes.

I think by "communal proof" you mean the process of corroboration of scientific results which all point to the same hypothesis.

'Communal proof' = proof that follows a logical path and therefore can be shared - yeah what you said. Proof of God often does not follow a logical path and thus cannot be shared to any advantage.

the logic of your post seems to suggests that a belief of creationism and evolution can co-exist in the same person at the same time. I'm pretty sure that doublethink takes a bit more effort than that.

That was not with reference to evolution.
Adding to what I said, science and spirituality can work together in most cases, except where your religions text(i.e. bible) or inderstanding is contradicted by some hypothesis.

In the case of evolution from the bible the earth is only ~6000 years old so for me that puts out evolution due to the timescale.

The point I'm trying to make is that personal 'tests' can and are flawed. It has been well established that group decision making is often better than individual decision making.

That is true, personal 'tests' can definitely be flawed, their reliability must be judged case by case.
In an earlier post you identified yourself as Catholic, I am going to assume you have witnessed an event from which you know God exists.
This is something I am referring to as a 'personal test'. Are you saying that your acknowledgement of God is flawed?

[Glockmeister]

thats true that that occurs to give us different humans but are are genes gonna recombine to turn us back into apes over the next century... no way rubbish i say

It is possible. Who am I to predict what forces Nature could bring in the next millions of years? There are many circumstances where certain characteristics that we have, for example intelligence could not be useful (I'm awfully tempted to say for example, this argument, but I'll won't go that low). Say the worst possible result of climate change happens and floods/rain/fires destroys all recognisable civilisation. In the ensuring chaos, many people will die. In this sort of environment, people who are more aggressive will have a greater chance of survival than those who aren't. Then there is a greater chance that such people will be able to reproduce, thereby allowing those characteristics to be exhibited within the human population.

[enwiabe]

I wasnt brainwashed into my religion like in a cult. i chose my religion

Answer me these questions, then (you're more than welcome not to, and if they make you feel uncomfortable, please do not feel obliged):

1) Do your parents follow the same religion as you?
2) Did your parents educate you in your religion during your formative years?
3) Did your parents send you to religious learning institutions (e.g. sunday school)?
4) Did your parents and/or religious learning institution teach you about other religions in detail comparable to that of your current religion before year 7?