If everyone was atheist...

[Chavi]

I think we need to make a distinction between 'faith' and 'religious thought', which can at times work independently

I think you mean you can interchange them to manipulate your arguments to suit your foregone conclusion rather than any meaningful inquisition into the truth.

Let faith be the belief in a diety - God, mother nature, the cookie monster
Let religious thought be the accumulation of thousand of years of literature relating to the set of laws and lifestyles that have developed parallel to (and often in consequence to) faith.

Where is the contradiction here?

They are ultimately the same thing. Religious thought is just another word for religious faith and that which supports it. You have descended this argument into silly semantics, which greatly indicates the fragility of your stance.

No I have maintained the same stance throughout which has been:
1) Faith is by definition a belief which does not require logic
2) Faith and belief cannot be conclusively proven, hence logically the safest position is the agnostic one, as both sides of the faith debate have the burden of proof.
3) This does not mean that a particular faith is untrue or wrong - or even may explain the fundamental example of our existence. There is simply no proof either way to know that.
4) Religious thought (not theological thought), are the commentaries and laws that comprise it, have dictated cultural traditions, societal norms and laws. These are very much temporal studies and laws, rather than theological ones.

In the absence of knowledge, blind faith only obfuscates.

But religious thought provides the academic rigours of knowledge that enable a faith to be rationally perceived by its adherents (i.e. when blind faith becomes a solid understanding from a religious perspective). The act of faith in itself is still a belief, yes - but once a believer has the foundation of belief, the entire cultural lifestyle is then built on from that.

[Yitzi_K]

How many people on here believe in an afterlife?

I do

[enwiabe]

It's funny how Yitzi and Chavi have picked one tiny semantic bit of my entire page long argument to grab at, and yet are unwilling to acknowledge the wider implications of my argument to do with the fear of uncertainty. Are neither of you game to have a go?

All right, I'll bite.

Sure, religion provides refuge from uncertainty, and yes, without it there'd be many unable to cope with the questions posed. Clearly you believe that a long time ago, someone said, 'well shit, I haven't a clue why we're here and that scares me. Let's just say that some Being put us here for a purpose, that makes me feel much better'.

Now I agree that's a reasonable-sounding claim to put forward. But why does that have to be the case?

I never said it was the case. I said it was the most reasonable sounding of the bunch.

I'm not going to argue with that point. But it doesn't make you right and me wrong. Have you never watched a murder mystery? The most obvious answer is never the correct one 

Edit: 770 posts yay

You have misunderstood what I am about. I do not know if god exists or not. If you are 'wrong' or not. I have never laboured under the pretensions that I have a belief, or that it is correct. My hope is that we can find the answer. But I do not for a second believe that I have the answer, and will not accept an answer without conclusive proof.

What I do know to be true is that human nature is not helped by fear of uncertainty, which manifests itself in one form as blind faith.

[Yitzi_K]

But I ...  will not accept an answer without conclusive proof.

Well fair enough, this is where you and I differ. G-d requires of us that we take a leap of faith, and I'm prepared to do so and you're not.

In all seriousness, I think your problem is that you have too many questions and not enough answers. No doubt you've read the Bible, and, being an intelligent person, you must have had hundereds if not thousands of questions. What you have to understand is that every single one of those questions has been asked, and answered. And I believe that you are doing your intellectual self a huge disservice by not trying to find those answers. As someone who is a great believer in progress, I'm sure you'll appreciate that progress is achieved by trying to find the answers to questions, not by being content with the question itself.

[Chavi]

[What I do know to be true is that human nature is not helped by fear of uncertainty, which manifests itself in one form as blind faith.

Uncertainty is an agnostic position, not so much a religious one. On the fear factor, uncertainty in religion probably rates a 2.5. There are multiple reasons for blind faith - the most common one is that people fail to question their surroundings and come to accept a dogma. This is not the byproduct of uncertainty, but rather that of nonchalance, or zealousness.

[enwiabe]

But I ...  will not accept an answer without conclusive proof.

Well fair enough, this is where you and I differ. G-d requires of us that we take a leap of faith, and I'm prepared to do so and you're not.

In all seriousness, I think your problem is that you have too many questions and not enough answers. No doubt you've read the Bible, and, being an intelligent person, you must have had hundereds if not thousands of questions. What you have to understand is that every single one of those questions has been asked, and answered. And I believe that you are doing your intellectual self a huge disservice by not trying to find those answers. As someone who is a great believer in progress, I'm sure you'll appreciate that progress is achieved by trying to find the answers to questions, not by being content with the question itself.

But they're not answers. They're guesses. I'm interested in answers, not guesswork.

[enwiabe]

[What I do know to be true is that human nature is not helped by fear of uncertainty, which manifests itself in one form as blind faith.

Uncertainty is an agnostic position, not so much a religious one. On the fear factor, uncertainty in religion probably rates a 2.5. There are multiple reasons for blind faith - the most common one is that people fail to question their surroundings and come to accept a dogma. This is not the byproduct of uncertainty, but rather that of nonchalance, or zealousness.

Most people are too troubled by uncertainty to question it, and therefore opt for the easy answer which is 'god did it'. And then, at the root of zealousness is also fear of uncertainty, so it all ties together into a big ball of fail that inevitably helps individual people in the short term, but hinders humanity in the long term.

[Chavi]

But I ...  will not accept an answer without conclusive proof.

Well fair enough, this is where you and I differ. G-d requires of us that we take a leap of faith, and I'm prepared to do so and you're not.

In all seriousness, I think your problem is that you have too many questions and not enough answers. No doubt you've read the Bible, and, being an intelligent person, you must have had hundereds if not thousands of questions. What you have to understand is that every single one of those questions has been asked, and answered. And I believe that you are doing your intellectual self a huge disservice by not trying to find those answers. As someone who is a great believer in progress, I'm sure you'll appreciate that progress is achieved by trying to find the answers to questions, not by being content with the question itself.

But they're not answers. They're guesses. I'm interested in answers, not guesswork.

The you resign yourself to the agnostic position for life. . .

[MuggedByReality]

   I hope this thread isn't locked, but maybe it could be split from about the middle of page 4 onwards, where the debate shifted from ethics to epistemology?

[Spreadbury]

Well fair enough, this is where you and I differ. G-d requires of us that we take a leap of faith, and I'm prepared to do so and you're not.

This statement brought to mind a scene from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade where Indiana has to take a leap of faith to cross the chasm into the grail room, and then it is revealed that there is a walkway beneath Indiana's feet. Sort of like the whole "does God exist?" debate- while a 'leap of faith' is required, it appears there is a logical explanation behind God's miracles.

(haha, I sort of butchered my point. Sounded better inside my head )

[Chavi]

[What I do know to be true is that human nature is not helped by fear of uncertainty, which manifests itself in one form as blind faith.

Uncertainty is an agnostic position, not so much a religious one. On the fear factor, uncertainty in religion probably rates a 2.5. There are multiple reasons for blind faith - the most common one is that people fail to question their surroundings and come to accept a dogma. This is not the byproduct of uncertainty, but rather that of nonchalance, or zealousness.

And at the root of zealousness is the fear of uncertainty.

Sit a zealot down with a lie detector, sedate him with enough to keep him still for a few hours, and then ask him: "Do you want to kill people and propagate your beliefs because you are afraid?"
*tears welling up*
"Yes"
"Of what?"
"Uncertainty". Such a comical situation would not occur,

Clearly this is not what motivates zealots - but in a quest to develop a model for their root motivation, you have presented a personal psychoanalysis that you have logically deduced as the perfect explanation (see, one man's logic is another man's faith). It's quite the opposite - absolute certainty in the correctness of their position.

[enwiabe]

But I ...  will not accept an answer without conclusive proof.

Well fair enough, this is where you and I differ. G-d requires of us that we take a leap of faith, and I'm prepared to do so and you're not.

In all seriousness, I think your problem is that you have too many questions and not enough answers. No doubt you've read the Bible, and, being an intelligent person, you must have had hundereds if not thousands of questions. What you have to understand is that every single one of those questions has been asked, and answered. And I believe that you are doing your intellectual self a huge disservice by not trying to find those answers. As someone who is a great believer in progress, I'm sure you'll appreciate that progress is achieved by trying to find the answers to questions, not by being content with the question itself.

But they're not answers. They're guesses. I'm interested in answers, not guesswork.

The you resign yourself to the agnostic position for life. . .

False assumption. I am not agnostic about 1+1=2. This I know to be true. If it could be proven to me either way whether or not god exists, then I would accept it. I probably will remain agnostic for life though, you are correct. I really hope we can find the answer in my lifetime. That would be incredibly exciting, but I'm not going to be lazy and guess it because I have this great need for an answer of any kind, true or not...

[enwiabe]

[What I do know to be true is that human nature is not helped by fear of uncertainty, which manifests itself in one form as blind faith.

Uncertainty is an agnostic position, not so much a religious one. On the fear factor, uncertainty in religion probably rates a 2.5. There are multiple reasons for blind faith - the most common one is that people fail to question their surroundings and come to accept a dogma. This is not the byproduct of uncertainty, but rather that of nonchalance, or zealousness.

And at the root of zealousness is the fear of uncertainty.

Sit a zealot down with a lie detector, sedate him with enough to keep him still for a few hours, and then ask him: "Do you want to kill people and propagate your beliefs because of are afraid?"
*tears welling up*
"Yes"
"Of what"
"Uncertainty".

This is to what motivates zealots. It's quite the opposite - absolute certainty in the correctness of their position.

Precisely, and trying to move him from the certainty of his position frightens him. He has found that elusive certainty and is clinging to it. Threats to his dogma must be expunged, because if the threat comes to fruition, it means the shattering of his entire worldview and everything he holds dear. It is this fear that drives him to commit the murders.

[Chavi]

[What I do know to be true is that human nature is not helped by fear of uncertainty, which manifests itself in one form as blind faith.

Uncertainty is an agnostic position, not so much a religious one. On the fear factor, uncertainty in religion probably rates a 2.5. There are multiple reasons for blind faith - the most common one is that people fail to question their surroundings and come to accept a dogma. This is not the byproduct of uncertainty, but rather that of nonchalance, or zealousness.

And at the root of zealousness is the fear of uncertainty.

Sit a zealot down with a lie detector, sedate him with enough to keep him still for a few hours, and then ask him: "Do you want to kill people and propagate your beliefs because of are afraid?"
*tears welling up*
"Yes"
"Of what"
"Uncertainty".

This is to what motivates zealots. It's quite the opposite - absolute certainty in the correctness of their position.

Precisely, and trying to move him from the certainty of his position frightens him. It means shattering his entire worldview and everything he holds dear. It is this fear that he may be wrong, that his certainty was all for nought that drives him to commit the murders.

And then, as I stated in my previous post, he moves on to position 2). This is why the whole fear of uncertainty argument sounds like baloney.

[enwiabe]

[What I do know to be true is that human nature is not helped by fear of uncertainty, which manifests itself in one form as blind faith.

Uncertainty is an agnostic position, not so much a religious one. On the fear factor, uncertainty in religion probably rates a 2.5. There are multiple reasons for blind faith - the most common one is that people fail to question their surroundings and come to accept a dogma. This is not the byproduct of uncertainty, but rather that of nonchalance, or zealousness.

And at the root of zealousness is the fear of uncertainty.

Sit a zealot down with a lie detector, sedate him with enough to keep him still for a few hours, and then ask him: "Do you want to kill people and propagate your beliefs because of are afraid?"
*tears welling up*
"Yes"
"Of what"
"Uncertainty".

This is to what motivates zealots. It's quite the opposite - absolute certainty in the correctness of their position.

Precisely, and trying to move him from the certainty of his position frightens him. It means shattering his entire worldview and everything he holds dear. It is this fear that he may be wrong, that his certainty was all for nought that drives him to commit the murders.

And then, as I stated in my previous post, he moves on to position 2). This is why the whole fear of uncertainty argument sounds like baloney.

Remind me what was position 2?