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April 29, 2026, 02:05:26 am

Author Topic: VCE Methods Question Thread!  (Read 6063645 times)  Share 

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Sine

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Re: VCE Methods Question Thread!
« Reply #15240 on: September 02, 2017, 06:08:28 pm »
+1
When finding the sample space for binomial distributions, how do I write it in CAS? For example...

Pr(x=1)+Pr(X=0) < 0.05,  where p=0.2

I use solve but it never gives me a n=... answer D:
you will have to write down the actual expression for Pr(X=0), Pr(X=1) etc (the one including p, (1-p) and nCr)  and then solve the inequality.
However at times these inequailities don't seem to solve on the CAS so if that happens you need to use trial and error to find n.

kiki.

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Re: VCE Methods Question Thread!
« Reply #15241 on: September 02, 2017, 06:12:09 pm »
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Hi Sine, thanks for your reply!

This is what I type in my CAS:

solve(nCr(n,0)(0.8)^n + nCr(n,1)*(0.2)^1*(0.8)^(n-1) = 0.05,n) and it comes up with 5^n-5(n+4)*4^n =0

Can you tell me how I'm typing it wrong? It's impossible to do trial and error because they all come up with really complex .023748 numbers

Sine

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Re: VCE Methods Question Thread!
« Reply #15242 on: September 02, 2017, 06:18:44 pm »
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Hi Sine, thanks for your reply!

This is what I type in my CAS:

solve(nCr(n,0)(0.8)^n + nCr(n,1)*(0.2)^1*(0.8)^(n-1) = 0.05,n) and it comes up with 5^n-5(n+4)*4^n =0

Can you tell me how I'm typing it wrong? It's impossible to do trial and error because they all come up with really complex .023748 numbers
hmm I type the same thing in and get answers n=-3.9165,21.7744

you won't get whole numbers you just need to be able to interpret your answer correctly

kiki.

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Re: VCE Methods Question Thread!
« Reply #15243 on: September 02, 2017, 06:24:37 pm »
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That's so weird! I'm not getting any numerical value at all. Must be something with my calculator. D: Thanks Sine!

Willba99

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Re: VCE Methods Question Thread!
« Reply #15244 on: September 02, 2017, 06:31:29 pm »
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That's so weird! I'm not getting any numerical value at all. Must be something with my calculator. D: Thanks Sine!

also, you can put it into the graph, with the number of trials being x, and get it to spit out all the values. Then, you just look for which x value gives the desired probability
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kiki.

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Re: VCE Methods Question Thread!
« Reply #15245 on: September 02, 2017, 06:39:53 pm »
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Thanks Willba99! How do you do that though? Can you tell me step by step?

Willba99

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Re: VCE Methods Question Thread!
« Reply #15246 on: September 02, 2017, 06:57:10 pm »
+4
Sure! Just for clarification, I'm on a CASIO classpad

So you're looking for Pr(X=1)+Pr(X=0)>.05

What I do is i go to interactive>distribution>discrete>binomialPDF, then enter x=0, Numtrial=x, and pos=.2. When you click okay, it'll say wrong argument type or something. Thats fine just ignore that. Then, in the same row, click + then repeat the process, except make x=1. When you click okay, it'll say wrong argument type again.

I know that sounds confusing when its typed out but its only a few clicks. You should end up with:
binomialPDF(1,x,0.2)+binomialPDF(0,x,0.2)

Copy that, and got to Graph&Table. Paste the formula. Then, instead of clicking the graph button (the parabola shaped one) click the one next to it. Down the bottom, it should the show the associated probabilities for each value of x (each number of trials). Then, scroll down until you find the value of x where the corresponding probability is less than 0.05. For me, that was 22 trials.

(P.s. I'm only year 12, could be wrong :) )
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Rieko Ioane

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Re: VCE Methods Question Thread!
« Reply #15247 on: September 02, 2017, 07:25:22 pm »
+1
For this http://imgur.com/a/ok4jm
Apparently option A is not correct. But isn't I and II both true? The answer says I is not. So the answer is C?

Thank you

VanillaRice

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Re: VCE Methods Question Thread!
« Reply #15248 on: September 02, 2017, 07:34:30 pm »
+7
Thanks Willba99! How do you do that though? Can you tell me step by step?
Sure! Just for clarification, I'm on a CASIO classpad

So you're looking for Pr(X=1)+Pr(X=0)>.05

What I do is i go to interactive>distribution>discrete>binomialPDF, then enter x=0, Numtrial=x, and pos=.2. When you click okay, it'll say wrong argument type or something. Thats fine just ignore that. Then, in the same row, click + then repeat the process, except make x=1. When you click okay, it'll say wrong argument type again.

I know that sounds confusing when its typed out but its only a few clicks. You should end up with:
binomialPDF(1,x,0.2)+binomialPDF(0,x,0.2)

Copy that, and got to Graph&Table. Paste the formula. Then, instead of clicking the graph button (the parabola shaped one) click the one next to it. Down the bottom, it should the show the associated probabilities for each value of x (each number of trials). Then, scroll down until you find the value of x where the corresponding probability is less than 0.05. For me, that was 22 trials.

(P.s. I'm only year 12, could be wrong :) )

Nice answer by Willba99!  :D

I'll do a similar thing (for the benefit of those on the CAS ti-nspire):
1) On a calculator page, I'll first define a function (Menu>Actions>Define) as
bi(n) = binomPdf(n,0.2,0) + binomPdf(n,0.2,1)
Note I am definiing a function (doesn't have to be bi, can be anything you want :P) bi(n) = Pr(X=0) + Pr(X=1) for p=0.2. Use Menu>Probability>Distributions>Binomial Pdf to avoid typing it out.

2) Open a new List & Spreadsheet page

3) Hit ctrl + T

4) Select bi (or whatever you've defined your function as) from the dropdown list

5) The first column list the values of n, the second column lists the probability Pr(X=0) + Pr(X=1) for that value of n.
We want Pr(X=0) + Pr(X=1) < 0.05, so scroll down the second column until the number is < 0.05. Like Willba99 has said above, the lowest value for n for which the probability is < 0.05 is 22.


For this http://imgur.com/a/ok4jm
Apparently option A is not correct. But isn't I and II both true? The answer says I is not. So the answer is C?

Thank you
I would agree with you - a higher level of confidence (e.g. 99%) would require a wider confidence interval than say, a 90% level of confidence. I feel that the textbook may have made a mistake here, unless we're both missing something. Perhaps someone else has some further insight?

EDIT: Perhaps, option I is incorrect since it's not 'strictly' always true? Consider a 99% CI with a very large sample size, versus a 95% CI with a very small sample size. In this case, the 95% CI interval (with lower confidence) would have a wider confidence interval, due to the effect of sample size. The question doesn't really state whether the standard deviations or sample sizes remain constant, so this is the only reason I can think of.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 10:57:24 pm by VanillaRice »
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kiki.

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Re: VCE Methods Question Thread!
« Reply #15249 on: September 02, 2017, 09:46:27 pm »
+2
Thank you so much Willba99! now i understand why I've been getting a different answer from you, I'm on CAS (the TIS Inspire one). Sorry for not saying it earlier.
Thank you VanillaRice!! Is CAS the TI-Nspire one? I'm curious if on CAS it's possible to use the solve function or are we required to use the spreadsheet?

Sine

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Re: VCE Methods Question Thread!
« Reply #15250 on: September 02, 2017, 10:04:51 pm »
+4
Thank you so much Willba99! now i understand why I've been getting a different answer from you, I'm on CAS (the TIS Inspire one). Sorry for not saying it earlier.
Thank you VanillaRice!! Is CAS the TI-Nspire one? I'm curious if on CAS it's possible to use the solve function or are we required to use the spreadsheet?
hey kiki

I'm on the TI-nspire CAS and got the previously mentioned answers using the solve function.


VanillaRice

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Re: VCE Methods Question Thread!
« Reply #15251 on: September 02, 2017, 10:56:09 pm »
+2
Thank you so much Willba99! now i understand why I've been getting a different answer from you, I'm on CAS (the TIS Inspire one). Sorry for not saying it earlier.
Thank you VanillaRice!! Is CAS the TI-Nspire one? I'm curious if on CAS it's possible to use the solve function or are we required to use the spreadsheet?

hey kiki

I'm on the TI-nspire CAS and got the previously mentioned answers using the solve function.


Yup! The TI-nspire one.
Like Sine has said, you should be able to get an answer using the solve function like you said previously. If you're in exact answer mode, you may need to get an approximate answer by hitting 'ctrl + enter' instead of just 'enter' when you're solving. :)
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kiki.

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Re: VCE Methods Question Thread!
« Reply #15252 on: September 02, 2017, 11:14:10 pm »
0
I think I'm suffering from sleep deprivation, sorry Sine, I thought you were Willba, hahaha. So there is something wrong with my CAS, ugh. I think I'll check with my other classmates. Could you tell me what settings you're on?

VanillaRice, it's not comming with a proper answer at all. I've been getting things like (number)^n+(number)^n-4=0 :( I appreciate your help though :)

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Re: VCE Methods Question Thread!
« Reply #15253 on: September 03, 2017, 10:17:47 pm »
+3
I think I'm suffering from sleep deprivation, sorry Sine, I thought you were Willba, hahaha. So there is something wrong with my CAS, ugh. I think I'll check with my other classmates. Could you tell me what settings you're on?

VanillaRice, it's not comming with a proper answer at all. I've been getting things like (number)^n+(number)^n-4=0 :( I appreciate your help though :)

I've now written a CAS program for finding n with binomial CDF, which is always an option you could take, or:
-write out binomcdf([insert your values as per usual, and just write "n" where that value should go])I n=    use ctrl-enter and just keep changing n until you get it right
-generate sequence

binompdf seems to work ok in solve for me, but cdf doesnt
(just my anecdotal experience)

Sirius

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Re: VCE Methods Question Thread!
« Reply #15254 on: September 04, 2017, 05:53:59 pm »
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Hey,
Can someone please help me with this question?  I have no idea how to graph this on the CAS. All help is appreciated!!
Thanks in advance.  :)
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 05:57:53 pm by Sirius »
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