Why do people favour elite schools?

[nacho]

What I'm saying is,
you have a goal atar for self-satisfaction or to get in your course, say 98+

then isn't it your responsibility to get this ATAR? Schools will help, but if you buckle down and strive for your goals then surely you can achieve it without going to a good school.
But if you complain about how your shit school brought your ATAR down because the teachers were shit and the students were crap then you're just making excuses.

At a school like mine, people have ATAR goals too, just significantly lower than the students in top schools and students study accordingly, that's good work ethic.

[paulsterio]

Right, because everyone who gets sent to a private school is going to get an ATAR of 99.5 to start with...

Take a kid who would normally get an ATAR of say, 65, put him in a private school and he's going to get more than 65.45

No, it was an example, but in my eyes, the kids who get phenomenal ATARs at private schools would have gotten not much worse had they been at a public school. Let's take someone like student A who gets 99.95 at a prestigious private school. So if he goes to a public school, he still has a high chance of getting 99+, maybe not 99.95, but surely 99+. So is that small increment worth it to go to a private school?

And then there's the issue of parents who send their kids to private schools because they think that's all they need to do to ensure their child receives a good ATAR. I know a friend of a friend of mine who got an ATAR in the low 70s at Haileybury. He's now doing a course that requires an ATAR of mid 60's (I think it was around 65 last year, not too sure, but around there). Do you honestly think that money there was money well spent? His parents spent somewhere around the magnitude of $60,000 for their child to get an ATAR in the 70s. They could have just provided proper support, assisted their child personally, found him a few good tutors (or tutor him themself), get him a few more books and send him to their local public school and he might have gotten a better ATAR. I think this scenario happens quite a lot, don't you think?

One of the teachers at my school (really bad school) went on to teach at glen waverley this year.
In terms of his teaching, he was pretty average, and in some manners detrimental
and yet at glen waverley apparently he was hailed as a physics god who is really tank (not to say the guy was bad, but the extent he spoonfed his students was just lol. Also he is really tank, and he was the witer of maths quest). What i'm trying to say is, it's not necessarily good schools have good teachers, many mhs people have told me this too.

LOL! ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! THIS GUY IS THE BEST TEACHER IN THE WORLD!!!! (he's god at glen waverley!!!) - had him for physics!
he's not the writer of MQ btw, that's his brother, all of his siblings are teachers =.="
how is he detrimental though? I found that he was a knowledgeable and good teacher?

imo if ur a good student with a good work ethic any score is possible regardless of the school.

agreed, period.

If you have the money to spare, or you get a scholarship, or your parents are willing to make sacrifices to afford it, then why not? The difference between my ATAR and a 99.95 would have made the difference between me getting into med and "settling" for law, and I am by no means a unique snowflake in this regard.

true, i do agree with you there, if I do end up not getting into med, I will probably think about my ATAR long and hard, but the truth is, I don't have enough money to go to a private school, scholarship or no scholarship, my family wouldn't even be able to afford the uniform and the travel costs

[nacho]

One of the teachers at my school (really bad school) went on to teach at glen waverley this year.
In terms of his teaching, he was pretty average, and in some manners detrimental
and yet at glen waverley apparently he was hailed as a physics god who is really tank (not to say the guy was bad, but the extent he spoonfed his students was just lol. Also he is really tank, and he was the witer of maths quest). What i'm trying to say is, it's not necessarily good schools have good teachers, many mhs people have told me this too.

LOL! ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! THIS GUY IS THE BEST TEACHER IN THE WORLD!!!! (he's god at glen waverley!!!) - had him for physics!
he's not the writer of MQ btw, that's his brother, all of his siblings are teachers =.="
how is he detrimental though? I found that he was a knowledgeable and good teacher?

Well like, in yr 11 his methods class averaged 90+% for SACs (even the worst of students) and i was getting like high 80's low 90s
come exam time, where they had none of his help, not a single student got over 35% (i got a high 80 iirc) because he wasn't there to spoonfeed them
he helped them like mid-sacs and pre-sacs gave them permutations of the questions and like worked solutions.
apparently he did this at your school too o.O (source wishes to remain anonymous)

[ninwa]

No, it was an example, but in my eyes, the kids who get phenomenal ATARs at private schools would have gotten not much worse had they been at a public school. Let's take someone like student A who gets 99.95 at a prestigious private school. So if he goes to a public school, he still has a high chance of getting 99+, maybe not 99.95, but surely 99+. So is that small increment worth it to go to a private school?

And then there's the issue of parents who send their kids to private schools because they think that's all they need to do to ensure their child receives a good ATAR. I know a friend of a friend of mine who got an ATAR in the low 70s at Haileybury. He's now doing a course that requires an ATAR of mid 60's (I think it was around 65 last year, not too sure, but around there). Do you honestly think that money there was money well spent? His parents spent somewhere around the magnitude of $60,000 for their child to get an ATAR in the 70s. They could have just provided proper support, assisted their child personally, found him a few good tutors (or tutor him themself), get him a few more books and send him to their local public school and he might have gotten a better ATAR. I think this scenario happens quite a lot, don't you think?

Well, if you read the responses from people who did go to private schools, you'd realise that getting a good ATAR is only one of the many benefits you receive.

[Water]

What I'm saying is,
you have a goal atar for self-satisfaction or to get in your course, say 98+

then isn't it your responsibility to get this ATAR? Schools will help, but if you buckle down and strive for your goals then surely you can achieve it without going to a good school.
But if you complain about how your shit school brought your ATAR down because the teachers were shit and the students were crap then you're just making excuses.

At a school like mine, people have ATAR goals too, just significantly lower than the students in top schools and students study accordingly, that's good work ethic.

I agree, there is some blame that can be shifted towards the students themselves. But it is imperative to have an understanding of the wider world to draw upon developing this hard working ethos. A small minority, who are "gifted" (if you can deem it this way), will have a greater insight of the world or a natural passion for academics, and they will, indeed regardless of school, proceed to acquire a high score in ATAR.

I also agree you can attain a 98+ ATAR, but how much of this is so reliant in the fields of maths,science and language, and the mark ups that it rewards?

For the field of languages, isn't it agreeable, that kids who develop this skill from an early age will have a significant greater chance in achieving a high SS and therefore ATAR in the long term? It is schools that present these opportunities, but also the students that it brings in to develop a competitive atmosphere?

Granted, there will be a small division of students who will naturally be keen to study; however, only a minority. For the majority, a competitive atmosphere is key to a successful ATAR but also the foundations that has been instilled since an early age that makes getting 98+ ATAR plus such a breeze for the "elite students." And thus, elite schools should be favored as it presents these privileges that "shit" schools cannot.

[eeps]

It’s a bit of both in my opinion. Going to an 'elite' school will only get one so far. Sure, the environment and teachers may be better than public schools but, private schools will always have students who end up getting low scores around 60-70, even in the 50s and 40s. That’s fact. It’s just not publicised as much, if at all - to maintain the school’s reputation. I knew a fare few students who took going to a private school for granted and thought that because they go to a ‘good’ school that they will automatically get really good scores at the end of it all - which is not the case at all. If you don’t work hard, then you won’t get anywhere; regardless of the school one attends. However, having been to private school, it's not all about 'study, study, study'. I think one of the many reasons why parents send their child/children to private schools, in particular (given that they can afford to), is because such schools are able to provide extra-curricular activities/opportunities such as music, drama and sports.

[paulsterio]

Well like, in yr 11 his methods class averaged 90+% for SACs (even the worst of students) and i was getting like high 80's low 90s
come exam time, where they had none of his help, not a single student got over 35% (i got a high 80 iirc) because he wasn't there to spoonfeed them
he helped them like mid-sacs and pre-sacs gave them permutations of the questions and like worked solutions.
apparently he did this at your school too o.O (source wishes to remain anonymous)

he wouldn't give worked solutions, but he'd sort of hint that something would be on the SAC, like he would say something along the lines of "there's energy level diagrams on the SAC" which isn't really that bad per se

[Camo]

Personally I wouldn't go to a private school to get a high ATAR. I don't know why people complain about it, like I got a rather low score, and yet I get into the course I want. The fact that I will get to undertake higher education is astounding to me. Kids that are put in these expensive schools shouldn't abuse it. I went to a school which I felt at times there were a lack of resources and a lack of environment for me to actually do well.

To me going to an elite school only benefits you if they have high quality teachers, better resources/facilities, better equipment, better subject choice (couldn't get into a few subjects I would've liked), etc...

Epl is correct with saying it will only get you so far, you need motivation and that can only come from yourself.

[nacho]

I also agree you can attain a 98+ ATAR, but how much of this is so reliant in the fields of maths,science and language, and the mark ups that it rewards?

For the field of languages, isn't it agreeable, that kids who develop this skill from an early age will have a significant greater chance in achieving a high SS and therefore ATAR in the long term? It is schools that present these opportunities, but also the students that it brings in to develop a competitive atmosphere?

Granted, there will be a small division of students who will naturally be keen to study; however, only a minority. For the majority, a competitive atmosphere is key to a successful ATAR but also the foundations that has been instilled since an early age that makes getting 98+ ATAR plus such a breeze for the "elite students." And thus, elite schools should be favored as it presents these privileges that "shit" schools cannot.

sorry im not quite sure what you're trying to say here
In regards to maths, sciences, languages, your saying this because of the scaling?
scaling exists to even things up, no subject offers advantages. The accounting course was far easier to learn than the methods course, and the cohort far less competitive, hence methods should be scaled more than accounting = makes sense.

what do you mean early age? 3-4, primary school, year 7-9 ?
I did 4 years of indonesian and at the end of it, i knew how to count to 5 and say good afternoon,
and 2 years of italian and could count to 10 and say 'my name is' and 'hello, good bye'. My school gave me the opportunity, but i passed up on it, just as many of my friends from better schools have, so i disagree, again. Many high-scoring LOTE students just do the language their parents speak eg csl

a 98+ ATAR is indeed the minority (2% of vce students)
And in terms of foundations instilled at an early age, a guy at my school literally bummed around years 7-10 failing most tests, passing few and was also an annoying prick. Come year 12 he says 'i wanna be a lawyer' and dedicates himself to his work. he got 97, and actually helped me a lot too with one of my subjects.

At the end of the day, unless your school actually screws you over (stuffs up SAC ranking or something) or doesn't offer a subject, your VCE is your responsibility and your failure is your fault

[Water]

That is your fault for not taking advantages of these privileges. They are privileges for a reason. I never said that schools are 100% sole factor in molding you, but they are a significant portion.

I have also alluded to the wider world understanding that you have failed to address (elite schools, top tier schools, will naturally offer a wide range of students, those who are truly competitively intellectually but at a much more significant demographic and therefore a greater influence on other students and of course, the other spectrum being dumbasses and whatnot.). You have also failed to acknowledge that when I implicated minority, it is not the 98+, but the people who are truly passionate about studying. Anyone can potentially get 98+, but opportunities and circumstance once again can lead this astray.

Family etc are all other variables, that I will not discuss. But schools are there to provide a footing stone for you. And a greater quality footing stone will offer you the advantage of leaping farther, both in life, in personality and endeavor. That is, if you don't take advantage of it, you indeed, have no one to blame but absolutely your self and your ignorance whether conscious or unconscious. But if it unconscious, then it beckons the thought about school and environment that you are brought up in which therefore undermines my previous sentence.

[paulsterio]

This is a really pointless and circled debate because those who attended a public school will always portray public schools as adequate and private schools as rich and excessive to the point of over-indulgence. Those who went to private schools will always see that public schools have lack in culture or attitude and opportunities which they supposedly have in bundles.

It comes down to where we were educated. Those in public schools, such as myself, will forever believe that education should never be privatised and that the government is pouring water into buckets which are already full and overflowing whilst the emptiest buckets receive but a mere drop of water. I'm also of the belief that it is the family and the student themselves, not the school which will shape the student's future. I understand that those who went to private schools will see it a different way, I know that if I went to a private school, maybe I would understand more about these benefits which seem a little far-fetched to me. I'm sure that if some of those who did year 12 in a private school went to a public school, they will too understand that it's not terrible, that there are competitive students and that the environment is warm and friendly too.

I think that people don't favour elite schools, it's just that most parents are anxious and just want their child to do their best, they're often mistaken that it is their child, not the school which will be the deciding factor. Good students, no matter where they are, will always be good. Bad students, even in the best school in the world, will fail to see the light at the end of the tunnel.

[Jdog]

This is a really pointless and circled debate because those who attended a public school will always portray public schools as adequate and private schools as rich and excessive to the point of over-indulgence. Those who went to private schools will always see that public schools have lack in culture or attitude and opportunities which they supposedly have in bundles.

It comes down to where we were educated. Those in public schools, such as myself, will forever believe that education should never be privatised and that the government is pouring water into buckets which are already full and overflowing whilst the emptiest buckets receive but a mere drop of water. I'm also of the belief that it is the family and the student themselves, not the school which will shape the student's future. I understand that those who went to private schools will see it a different way, I know that if I went to a private school, maybe I would understand more about these benefits which seem a little far-fetched to me. I'm sure that if some of those who did year 12 in a private school went to a public school, they will too understand that it's not terrible, that there are competitive students and that the environment is warm and friendly too.

I think that people don't favour elite schools, it's just that most parents are anxious and just want their child to do their best, they're often mistaken that it is their child, not the school which will be the deciding factor. Good students, no matter where they are, will always be good. Bad students, even in the best school in the world, will fail to see the light at the end of the tunnel.

you think that school is just for academics. That is NOT what a private school is. and you say those who have attended either will support that one. I Have attended both, so can comment that its not all about academics!

[Russ]

Right, because everyone who gets sent to a private school is going to get an ATAR of 99.5 to start with...

Take a kid who would normally get an ATAR of say, 65, put him in a private school and he's going to get more than 65.45

No, it was an example, but in my eyes, the kids who get phenomenal ATARs at private schools would have gotten not much worse had they been at a public school. Let's take someone like student A who gets 99.95 at a prestigious private school. So if he goes to a public school, he still has a high chance of getting 99+, maybe not 99.95, but surely 99+. So is that small increment worth it to go to a private school?

Did you seriously just ignore what I posted and then repeat the exact same thing you originally posted?

To me going to an elite school only benefits you if they have high quality teachers, better resources/facilities, better equipment, better subject choice (couldn't get into a few subjects I would've liked), etc...

Epl is correct with saying it will only get you so far, you need motivation and that can only come from yourself.

Yeah, of course. But the thing is, private schools generally have all these things, as well as plenty of non academic benefits.

Those in public schools, such as myself, will forever believe that education should never be privatised and that the government is pouring water into buckets which are already full and overflowing whilst the emptiest buckets receive but a mere drop of water.

Rubbish, but nice hyperbole. Nobody is saying that only the rich deserve education. Your opinion on education most certainly does not depend on where you were educated, all it requires is the ability to compare the average private/public school.

This thread isn't about how public schools are for the lesser student and that nobody can succeed there, so nobody should be getting defensive about their education. When it comes down to public and private education, there is unfortunately a gap - the gap exists and denying its presence is not going to help anybody. You can be successful at a public school, but at a private school you are offered more tools and opportunities in the pursuit of your goals, be they academic or otherwise. Old boys/girls networks are pretty much the greatest benefit you will ever get from a private school and it's unfortunate that they're so pervasive, but such is life.

In general, if you put a disinterested student in a private school from a public school, it won't act as some magic tonic to make him/her interested. But it will probably improve his/her prospects measurably. If you think otherwise, you're either willfully ignorant or have some evidence that nobody has seen before.

That's my last comment on the matter unless somebody posts something worth responding to.

[Stick]

Wow, this thread has gone way off topic since my opening post... It's not about private vs public, guys. I'm talking elite vs non-elite here (refer to my opening post).

[playsimme]

Idk, but being in a private school motivated me in a way which made me want to please my parents for sending me to such a good facilitated school. My gratitude to them was my score, and ultimately in hindsight if I went to the public school I was originally going to go to (not a very well renowned one), I definitely would of felt rather bitter about it and not push myself to the extreme to reap the rewards.