School Rankings

[Russ]

Not sure if "quality facilities" is important to a good education.

They're incredibly important and you're deluding yourself if you think otherwise. It's part of the reason why inner metropolitan melbourne dominates the ATAR rankings

I'm deluding myself? Tell me, oh great sir, what EXACT FACILITIES are essential for a good education?

Are you seriously trying to say that a school with half a dozen classrooms is going to be the same as a school with a multimillion dollar science center as long as the student really wants to do well? Quality facilities are extremely important in education, it's why schools and universities pour money into them...

[nisha]

What are we comparing? Elite private schools to Weak Government schools? Which schools are we talking about exactly?

[louise_2012]

I'm not intending to weigh in on this debate at all because I think that all in all it is a bit futile. No one can really definitively say whether selective entry schools are better than 'elite' private schools unless they have attended each selective entry school an each 'elite' private school. Which is impossible.

But having been to a private school I can't help but point out a few... misconceptions?

I doubt this is true (we are talking the "elite private school"), but even if it is, they are still richer than the average household, which would never be able to afford fees of 15k+/year for up to 13 years per child!

I'm not entirely sure of what you classify as an 'elite' private school but I go to a school which I think may fall into your classification. I can say first hand that there are many people at my school and other similar schools who are on scholarships. Most of them would be unable to go there without the scholarship. There are also a lot of people who's parents work extremely hard just to afford the fees. Yes there are numerous wealthy people there but they aren't always the majority.

I think the critical point being missed here is that simply attending MHS/Macrob doesn't mean you're going to get that  extra 3-4 points added onto your ATAR.  You still have to work hard just as hard as you would at a private school.

+1000. Also with that whole median ATAR argument, there are numerous 'elite' private schools that do get median ATARs in that 94/95 range. They may not get it every year but considering the people that they take in, I kind of don't see the credibiity to that argument. From what I percieve as others have reiterated, a select entry school takes in A/A+ students and a private school takes in students of all the range. Select entry schools output A/A+ students and many private schools output mostly A/A+ students.

But the fact that 99% of students stay must say something good about the school.

There are also a lot of people who get accepted and don't go. I'm not disputing your statement, but people shouldn't forget the number of people who don't want to apply and the number of people that get accepted and don't want to go. Selective entry schools aren't schools that everyone desires to go to and I often think that some people don't realise this.

That depends if it is the best students not wanting to leave or if their parents don't want them to leave.

If its the students (and many of the private top students don't even try out), then I don't see how that puts a bad light on selective schools. If they were to move schools, not only would that take them out of their comfort zone to adjust to a new school, but they'd also have to pay back all their scholarship fees (I'm assuming that most 99.90+ private school students have scholarships, which is probably true). It's just easier and cheaper to stay in their private school for them, and fair enough. Perhaps if they didn't have to pay back fees and such, selective schools might "steal" more of them.

From experiance, its the students. Numerous people in my year level alone were accepted into macrob and John Monash Science School (not MHS, its a girls school ahha). All those people's parents wanted them to leave and every single one of them told their parents no. And not all high achieving students at private schools have scholarships. The reason the people in my year level didn't leave was that they the select entry schools didn't appeal to them. There are other reasons that people do not want to go to selective entry schools, other than having to pay back scholarship fees.

You talk about facilities: MHS does have some good facilities, but still doesn't compare to the elite private schools.

As I said before, I can't pass accurate judgement on the facilities of such schools as I have never been there. But I would tend to think that this is correct. As far as I'm aware (this is the situation for my school, and I'm assuming for all others too) schools don't operate on a for profit basis. That ~$30K of school fees doesn't just dissipate into thin air; its used in facilities, co-curricular opportunities etc. I can't see how a government school could have the same facilities as a private school when they don't have that large amount of cash injection.

If you get into an elite aps school, they can transform an average student into a 99 +.

 If this actually happened, I wonder why Elite private schools are not the top school in Victoria, I wonder why MHS AND MACROB are?

^^. I think my point is made. i SHALL rest and agree that all schools offer great opportunities:)

It doesn't happen. It doesn't happen anywhere. No amount of private, selective or public tuition can help people who won't listen. Simply attending a place will never get you a certain score. It's the individual who's in control of the ignition, and its up to them what they want to learn and what they want to get out of the opportunities that their school offers.

Moderator action: removed real name, sorry for the inconvenience

[pi]

What are we comparing? Elite private schools to Weak Government schools? Which schools are we talking about exactly?

Initially, the debate was "Elite Private vs Selective"

A few earlier posts skewed that to "why people posting in this debate are arrogant un-thankful weasels" unfortunately. It was a fairly constructive debate until that point where the debate was labelled as "cock jousting"...

[Planck's constant]

Initially, the debate was "Elite Private vs Selective"

It was a fairly constructive debate until ...

Actually, people have been avoiding the real issue.
I can understand this, because its a tricky issue and hard to argue without crossing some boundaries.

I will try however.
Taiga said earlier, that if a son or daughter of his were to choose between a scholarship from an elite private school or an offer from a selective school, he would choose the latter.

This means nothing. The demographic which goes after private school scholarships is NOT different from the demographic which tries to get into a selective school. It is the SAME demographic. The only difference is that this demographic is mainstream in the selective school but marginalised at the private school.

None of the above reflects mainstream thinking at elite private schools. Most kids go to private schools at age 7 or 12. They dont go there for scholarships, and they cannot even apply for them in many cases, no matter how good they are academically.

It would not matter whether MGS or GGS tripled the fees to $100,000. Parents would still send their kids there for reasons other than those discussed on this thread. We all know what those reasons are. A selective school would never cross their mind as an option.

. Moderator action: removed real name, sorry for the inconvenience

[taiga]

I wouldn't put this as cock jousting Mech, I know it's fucking infuriating when you have to read how privileged other people are compared to what you may or may not have received, but in defence of myself, Tom, and pi, as students who carry a great pride in our school, I simply can't stand it when people go and claim it's overrated without being even in the most remote aspect aware of what goes on in selective schools.

The fact that anyone can get into MHS is definitely the best feature about it, we have lots of kids from poorer schools with lesser facilities and a lesser academic environment. Of my past schools, one was a shithole, one closed down, and the other two primary schools were regular primary schools. What I should have made more clear is that MHS has a lot to offer, resources on par, if not greater than that of a Private School, regardless of what these guys who have never visited MHS say.

Argonaut, I don't think your fee tripling analogy would work. I know people at private schools with a combined family income less than 100K who have their parents make so many sacrifices to send their kids there, I don't think everyone that sends their kids to such schools is that loaded.

Moderator action: removed real name, sorry for the inconvenience

[TheMirrorMan]

I'd have to say that you're misrepresenting the main points of this discussion. I think everyone here can agree that the best private schools have better facilities than MHS, this discussion isn't about arguing over the quality of the facilities at MHS compared to Scotch or MGS. The real issues being debated are whether or not having quality facilities is important to a good education and if so, how important it is along with differing views of the culture at each school and how it contributes to a well-rounded education.

I'm glad that you've seen success at your school but to criticise a debate on the false pretence that we're mostly comparing swimming pools and school ovals is to give a superficial and simplistic view of the debate whilst ignoring what is really being argued.  I think this discussion is relevant rather than being frivolous as we're discussing what we feel makes a well rounded and complete education, we're not cock jousting and comparing tweed jackets.

The real issue here is each of you wants to tote your anecdotes and how successful the school has been in providing with this 'holistic' education, and yet you do not realize that it is based on the individual. I would not prosper in a school that had an ethos of being sports orientated, as I am not a sports person. I would not prosper from having social clubs, ovals and what have you associated to such things; I would barely use them and I would benefit better from a large library and fast internet connection. The converse may be true for others.

This discussion is cock jousting. Like it or not.

Of course the individual is important, a lazy person who does no work is going to fail VCE regardless of what school they go to. But does that mean that we can't compare and discuss the differences between MHS and APS schools? Does it mean that we can't debate what we feel makes for a good and well-rounded education that would be beneficial for most people? Does it mean that we can't clear up misunderstandings on both sides and reach some sort of common ground?

If you think we're all acting like a bunch of elitist tools then feel free to stop reading, there are many threads on this website. But some people do think that this issue is important. Quite frankly, to tell us all to "shut up" because this thread is not relevant to you or because you feel our debate is pointless is a bit rude. Not every thread is going to be relevant to you and this debate has been quite civil and generally reasonable. I've learnt a few things about APS schools from it and I'm sure others have also learnt a thing or two. I see no reason for it to stop.

[Planck's constant]

Argonaut, I don't think your fee tripling analogy would work.

poetic licence my friend

[Planck's constant]

by the way people, if any of you have a younger brother or sister starting Year 12 and are looking for an Oral Presentation topic, 'School Rankings' is as good a topic as any.

Tell the little brother or sister to get on AN and say something controversial and taiga will respond with the WHOLE presentation for you


.

[Mech]

A few earlier posts skewed that to "why people posting in this debate are arrogant un-thankful weasels" unfortunately. It was a fairly constructive debate until that point where the debate was labelled as "cock jousting"...

And yet, really, that was not my wording at all. Except the cock jousting. That was all mine.  You are taking this personally, which is unfortunate.

I wouldn't put this as cock jousting Mech, I know it's fucking infuriating when you have to read how privileged other people are compared to what you may or may not have received, but in defence of myself, Tom, and pi, as students who carry a great pride in our school, I simply can't stand it when people go and claim it's overrated without being even in the most remote aspect aware of what goes on in selective schools.

It is not that some were privileged, it is that they are so full of it they cannot admit that others hold an opinion contrary to their own with regards to the merits of a school. You can have pride, but not this measuring contest; each person here holds an opinion relative to their needs and wants. There is no perfect niche for everyone. Let the ignorant people wallow in their ignorance of your school; you know your experiences and you know they were good and wholesome (and conducive to success). Enjoy it. Proving a point to people who are infatuated with their own alma mater wont convince them (however reasonable).

But does that mean that we can't compare and discuss the differences between MHS and APS schools? Does it mean that we can't debate what we feel makes for a good and well-rounded education that would be beneficial for most people? Does it mean that we can't clear up misunderstandings on both sides and reach some sort of common ground?

My point is there are a slew of pros and cons, each relative to the individual and their interests, strengths and desires. Also, their socioeconomic situation factors in. And misunderstandings in this thread have been based on individuals experiences; I could have went to the same school to you, and found it an absolutely atrocious experience whereas for you it was the epitome of a "well-rounded" education. You will just be arguing over your experiences and personal interests. State them, pros and cons, and then let people decide for themselves instead of making it read like it is some measuring contest of this "us versus them" attitude. But, ultimately, be thankful you got that privilege of opportunities.

Quite frankly, to tell us all to "shut up" because this thread is not relevant to you or because you feel our debate is pointless is a bit rude.

I am sorry I offended you with such mild language. You might not want to indulge in the humour (cheers to the person who shared this in IRC btw) I enjoy then. If you think my post was absolutely said in seriousness, with not an iota of humour mixed in there, I am sorry. I thought the likening of this thread to cock jousting, tweed jackets and malcontents was amusing (to which I never made any personal attack to one person, but a general blanket comment of this thread).

You are right there are other threads, and I should probably avoid some of the drivel in this one, but when I get peeved I tend to air it. However, this is a public thread, and I, too, am welcome to express my comments on the content of the thread. You are welcome to tell me to shut up and make sexual innuendos if you so wish also. Actually, I would enjoy that.

Moderator action: removed real name, sorry for the inconvenience

[Jdog]

I wouldn't put this as cock jousting Mech, I know it's fucking infuriating when you have to read how privileged other people are compared to what you may or may not have received, but in defence of myself, Tom, and pi, as students who carry a great pride in our school, I simply can't stand it when people go and claim it's overrated without being even in the most remote aspect aware of what goes on in selective schools.

The fact that anyone can get into MHS is definitely the best feature about it, we have lots of kids from poorer schools with lesser facilities and a lesser academic environment. Of my past schools, one was a shithole, one closed down, and the other two primary schools were regular primary schools. What I should have made more clear is that MHS has a lot to offer, resources on par, if not greater than that of a Private School, regardless of what these guys who have never visited MHS say.

Argonaut, I don't think your fee tripling analogy would work. I know people at private schools with a combined family income less than 100K who have their parents make so many sacrifices to send their kids there, I don't think everyone that sends their kids to such schools is that loaded.

I am not commenting without any substance. I have a sister who went to macrob. I sat the Melbhigh entrance test, because at one stage I was just like everyone else and wanted to get into the school. I visisted it so many times because I was in awe of its reputation. So I don't think you can claim I am commenting with having any knowledge of what goes on.

Im not saying MHS is a bad school by any means. Just that it is below the top private schools. And thank you for not being like the rest and assuming EVERYONE who goes to these schools are loaded and driving ferarirs, bmw, and mercs to school.

Moderator action: removed real name, sorry for the inconvenience

[JellyDonut]

So I've got the image of two cocks jousting in my mind and needless to say, I don't think I understand the metaphor

[taiga]

So I've got the image of two cocks jousting in my mind and needless to say, I don't think I understand the metaphor

yeah look I'm not sure what it means either, but from what I gather I don't really want to be involved in it

[Inside Out]

Dean geyer went to Melb High and he is now starring in TERRA NOVA. Cate Blanchette went to Ivanhoe Girls and Methodist Ladies College and Nicole Kidman and naomi watts went to a selective school in sydney. Oh and that rich guy who owns the truck bussiness went to melb high. Ha.

[HERculina]

Jesse Spencer (Chase from the show House) went to scotch as well