Do public school students perform better in uni than private school students?

[Russ]

Studies of student university grades suggest that private school students with the same ENTER scores as public school students achieve lower grades at university.

http://www.buseco.monash.edu.au/eco/research/seminars/chris-ryan.pdf

tl;dr summary pls?

TL;DR -  the paper linked is research on independent vs. government vs. catholic schools in years 11/12. The paper finds that independent school students perform better in year 12. Thus is consistent with previous research that finds that public school students with the same ENTER as private school students do better at university - it is harder for public school students to do as well, and thus they are presumably smarter if they achieve the same ENTER.

Also read TT's analysis of the maths modelling, I didn't bother to check that

[Mech]

Sure, we're dealing on an anecdotal level here - just discussing. I think the problem in my school was it was a special MAP  partnership with the school and it didn't feel like there was a lot of consultation/information/opportunity before selection took place. This was before the SEAS applications.

(Sorry for dragging this conversation a bit off-topic by the way.

Oh, I was not meaning to invalidate your anecdotal proof; I was just suggesting I could offer stories as well. Sorry if I sounded abrasive in tone, as that was not my intention! I am not quite sure what MAP partnership is. Could you explain?

Personally, I applied for SEAS after a lot of nagging from teachers. They said I was entitled to it because I fell into many categories and, really, it would have been stupid if I did not as it would benefit me. So, I applies as they told me and was able to provide all the relevant information (for example, I am on Youth Allowance et cetera). I know plenty of people who just put down they were underrepresented and regional and therefore qualified for lower requirements at Melbourne for biomedicine. They are not really financially disadvantaged at all or have no medical conditions/social problems.

[raveets95]

The thing with Access Melbourne is this, can you offer a better solution to the system?

[Mech]

The thing with Access Melbourne is this, can you offer a better solution to the system?

Not off the top of my head, no. It is trying to balance meritocratic principles with equal opportunities principles. It is an ongoing social issue.

[AnnaT]

This is incredibly strange because just this morning I had this exact same discussion with my mother (who is a lecturer at university). She seemed to think that this was sometimes true (not always) because kids at private schools generally have so much external motivation and pressure to study (i.e. parental pressure, pressure from teachers and other high achieving students). However when they get to university that is no longer there (university lecturers really don't care if you study or even attend.. haha). That said, I assume that this would be a very temporary thing and just a matter of adjusting to a new way of learning.

[Russ]

There's nothing wrong with the SEAS program. If you get people taking advantage of it without truly being affected, that's because the university admissions office isn't doing their job and checking the applications properly.

[Mech]

There's nothing wrong with the SEAS program. If you get people taking advantage of it without truly being affected, that's because the university admissions office isn't doing their job and checking the applications properly.

I know a guy who got a lower ATAR than me, is applying for biomedicine via SEAS and went to a private school, had tutors, parents own businesses and is claiming he is disadvantaged due to being a regional/underrepresented status. I know a few people who do things like this. 

Sometimes it seems a tad unfair, but he is entitled to it. I can see why some people think it might be broken. But, yeah, it is the university's job to filter the applications.

[Stick]

It can be unfair in the reverse too.

My cousin has a severely Autistic brother and comes from a financially-disadvantaged background and managed to get an equity scholarship at Shelford, reducing the fees by 50%. She got denied SEAS because of her school.

[Mech]

It can be unfair in the reverse too.

My cousin has a severely Autistic brother and comes from a financially-disadvantaged background and managed to get an equity scholarship at Shelford, reducing the fees by 50%. She got denied SEAS because of her school.

Yeah, that's a bit rough. It is by no means a perfect system. I think it comes to the meritocratic and equal opportunities balance I was talking about.

[lexitu]

Sure, we're dealing on an anecdotal level here - just discussing. I think the problem in my school was it was a special MAP  partnership with the school and it didn't feel like there was a lot of consultation/information/opportunity before selection took place. This was before the SEAS applications.

(Sorry for dragging this conversation a bit off-topic by the way.

Oh, I was not meaning to invalidate your anecdotal proof; I was just suggesting I could offer stories as well. Sorry if I sounded abrasive in tone, as that was not my intention! I am not quite sure what MAP partnership is. Could you explain?

Personally, I applied for SEAS after a lot of nagging from teachers. They said I was entitled to it because I fell into many categories and, really, it would have been stupid if I did not as it would benefit me. So, I applies as they told me and was able to provide all the relevant information (for example, I am on Youth Allowance et cetera). I know plenty of people who just put down they were underrepresented and regional and therefore qualified for lower requirements at Melbourne for biomedicine. They are not really financially disadvantaged at all or have no medical conditions/social problems.

Haha no you're fine, I was agreeing with your point that it was anecdotal - it should be taken cautiously and shouldn't really be generalised.

I am not sure exactly what the nature of the program was but it was some sort of partnership between Melbourne and Northcote High School where they hand-picked (how, I don't know) a group of students and gave them support during VCE (11/12) as well as the normal ATAR discount that is part of the Melbourne Access Program (SEAS).

I too was encouraged to apply under disproportionate representation or something like that. When do you find out if you get in / does it matter anyway?

[Planck's constant]

Other things being equal (eg intelligence, effort) private school fees buy you a min 10 ATAR percentage points. (no links, sorry, just gut feel)
Therefore at uni, a Broadmeadows High School 90 rates to do at least as well as a Scotch 99.9

[EvangelionZeta]

Other things being equal (eg intelligence, effort) private school fees buy you a min 10 ATAR percentage points. (no links, sorry, just gut feel)
Therefore at uni, a Broadmeadows High School 90 rates to do at least as well as a Scotch 99.9

...what is this I don't even.

I think there are a lot of Private School kids who get spoonfed into high 80s/low 90s scores who struggle at uni.  Such students tend to get by, but also suffer a bit from the "I just need to pass and it'll be ok" mentality.  I've never met anybody with a mid-high 90s ATAR from a Private School who's struggled at Uni before though (excepting personal, as opposed to academic circumstances). 

[Planck's constant]

Other things being equal (eg intelligence, effort) private school fees buy you a min 10 ATAR percentage points. (no links, sorry, just gut feel)
Therefore at uni, a Broadmeadows High School 90 rates to do at least as well as a Scotch 99.9

...what is this
 

It means that the ATAR score under-rates the ability of a public school student
I think that most people would agree with this

[Mech]

Haha no you're fine, I was agreeing with your point that it was anecdotal - it should be taken cautiously and shouldn't really be generalised.

I am not sure exactly what the nature of the program was but it was some sort of partnership between Melbourne and Northcote High School where they hand-picked (how, I don't know) a group of students and gave them support during VCE (11/12) as well as the normal ATAR discount that is part of the Melbourne Access Program (SEAS).

I too was encouraged to apply under disproportionate representation or something like that. When do you find out if you get in / does it matter anyway?

Heh, there was I think I had committed some form of faux pas! Sounds like the Kwong Lee Dow program or something similar? And 16th I find out if I get in. I got above the clearly-in ATAR requirements for last year though. If that is what you were asking?

[WhoTookMyUsername]

Other things being equal (eg intelligence, effort) private school fees buy you a min 10 ATAR percentage points. (no links, sorry, just gut feel)
Therefore at uni, a Broadmeadows High School 90 rates to do at least as well as a Scotch 99.9

...what is this
 

It means that the ATAR score under-rates the ability of a public school student
I think that most people would agree with this

if it's scalar surely a 95 at broadmeadows is equal to 105 at scotch?

while your contention is arguable, putting a random number on it and saying a 90 at broadmeadows is equal to a 99.9 at scotch is ridiculous