The Culture within AN

[thushan]

Haha I used to deal with bullying by being all chill with my bullies.

*bully comes to try jump me*

Me: "haha what's the deal here? come on now, no need for this!"

Bully: "...hahah you're my bro" (fistpump)

Bully walks away.

Worked every single time for me.

[Russ]

There is no good way to run a respect/karma system without it ultimately becoming a popularity contest or being subject to manipulation. People used to have organized karma trading circles via PM ffs, so we really think we've found a reasonable alternative. If you want to suggest an improvement there is a forum for that up top.

I don't like the respect system. As Paulsterio stated, people vote in herds, so a post which might only deserve -1 respect ends up with -20 (it has happened to me before and it is really annoying trying to get back). Also, it discourages people from expressing their opinion. I know that I have had to restrain myself from posting a lot of comments in order to keep a positive respect.

Isn't this working as intended, if you know you're going to get dozens of negative votes?

Worst of all: people can easily just go into your profile and give every single post a -1 respect. I had one guy do this to me for over 100 posts which really messed up my respect count.

Respect isn't affected until you receive +/- 3 votes. If this actually happened it's a bug and please let David know (post in the bug thread)

If you were really helpful on say the, the humanities boards, and that was where you only posted, could you get your respect as high as someone who only posted really helpful posts on the maths boards? Ultimately, those boards get a lot more activity.

Probably not. The respect system promotes people making contributions to discussion and the forum. If you want to post a tutoring ad and you want to generate some respect to get it more visibility, this seems to achieve our goal of bettering discussion, whether or not it's strictly "tutoring" related?

I wonder how many people on AN lie about the study scores/ATARs they have received?

People do this all the time, which is why you should always check tutor scores independently etc.
It's incredibly hard to verify otherwise

[abeybaby]

I think there's a big split - all things academic, this is probably the best site out there.

Moral/religious debates however, in my opinion, have been a disaster. Whilst there is the overwhelmingly respectful majority, there's an amazing disrespectful minority that I've been unfortunate enough to be on the receiving side of. I think EVERYBODY needs to understand that name calling, intimidation and insults are never acceptable. Literally everytime I have seen something that I think is personally hurtful, I have PM'd the mod who I thought was most appropriate - only once have I received a proper, helpful and mature response.

It is intimidating, to disagree with people who are both influential and highly vocal (in often overly aggressive ways). I'm lucky enough to have the self conviction to publicly disagree with what I don't believe in, irrespective of who else voices their opinion. Other people, equally as valuable people, are not so lucky. Losing these people's opinions not only diminishes intelligent discussion, but alienates members or what is meant to be a mutually beneficial forum.

Atarnotes is a genuinely wonderful place - I just wish we could keep our statements objective and polite.

[Biceps]

which happened to me on that protest discussion. ended up going negative on respect :/.

[Soul_Khan]

However, one of the issues I've noticed about the "Respect" system is that respect is very often given for the wrong reasons - most notably for "being funny" or "owning somebody". I could find examples, but I won't because I don't like singling people out, but it leads me to believe that there are some people on AN who "respect-monger" - i.e. just posting funny stuff or ownage stuff in order to GET RESPECT, things which add no real meaning or purpose into the thread. It makes them look like a hero and everyone +1's them, neglecting those who are truly helpful.

I think this applies to me. A lot of the respect I would argue is probably from making funny/witty statements, but I don't say the things I do for respect but simply because this is apart of my personality and I make funny statements (i don't think I'm funny btw) in other forums as well where there isn't a respect system - whirlpool and other anime forums for example. I do however try my best to help when I have the knowledge to do so.

In terms of people liking/respecting funny posts more then helpful posts - I wouldn't say this is particularly exclusive to AN, a perfect example would be facebook: I can't tell how many times a helpful and informative status gets so little likes whilst a funny meme or status gets so many. I strongly agree with you that helpful people should get more up votes votes however.

I think the respect system should be abolished all together to be honest with you, as I don't believe it's necessary, if a post is helpful people are already going to know it's helpful. You can also have a system whereby you can +1 or -1 without having respect, so you can see who is being helpful in that particular thread. Also I don't think it reflects the quality of a tutor, for example if I were to pick a tutor I wouldn't look at respect, as helping out on an internet forum doesn't necessarily mean that you are a good tutor but it just makes you more noticed then the people with less respect who may be also good tutors and are just as qualified to teach that particular subject. The review system and the tutor info work much better in terms of finding a suitable tutor IMO then respect and are more then sufficient..

[Genericname2365]

What Paulsterio said about respect very often being given for "owning somebody" and what abes22 said about the religious debates are the two issues that stand out most to me. Although there is one other issue I've observed: there are a lot of '0' and '1' ratings being given to certain VCE notes, usually with no rationale provided, resulting in a much lower average score than there would otherwise be. I tend to (as many people would) favour the notes with the higher average, but a lot of the scores are being skewed by such votes. Admittedly it's probably not a major issue, and I'm not sure how much it relates to the culture of AN, but I thought I'd point it out.
Edit: This one is an example: http://www.atarnotes.com/?p=notes&a=feedback&id=695

[pi]

I think there's a big split - all things academic, this is probably the best site out there.

Moral/religious debates however, in my opinion, have been a disaster. Whilst there is the overwhelmingly respectful majority, there's an amazing disrespectful minority that I've been unfortunate enough to be on the receiving side of. I think EVERYBODY needs to understand that name calling, intimidation and insults are never acceptable.

I agree fully with both these sentiments.

The religious threads or even those have have a religious undertone have nearly all ended in petty name-calling and some regular user being warned/having massive neg respect hits/banned. And unfortunately, I feel they also add to the "mods/admin vs users" thing that a few people have mentioned in this thread. We all need to lift our games in this regard, a bit of tolerance and respect shouldn't be a problem imo.

[paulsterio]

I don't think there'a an Admin vs. Users issue at all, it's just that Dan and Nina tend to have the same view on many issues, Dev doesn't really ever post, so it's like always Dan and Nina vs. everyone but either way religion is a sensitive issue where many people have many different opinions. I have seen cases where the name-calling is acceptable i.e. sometimes there are people whose posts are so stupid you wonder how hard they got knocked.

Other times, however, I agree, some people have been hard done by, I saw how Abes was name-called in one of the threads and that's not on because he was actually being very reasonable.

[Water]

I have seen cases where the name-calling is acceptable i.e. sometimes there are people whose posts are so stupid you wonder how hard they got knocked.

Sorry, I am just curious, when is it EVER genuinely  acceptable to name-call someone. Surely, stupid posts to you, is perhaps,  real/true to the other person. What happens then? They are warranted to be name-called simply because of your perception that their post is stupid? I don't understand, are you saying, that posts can be objectively interpreted now?

[Biceps]

I suggest removing the ability to vote for respect from the religious debates.
Everyone has different beliefs it just doesn't work there.

[enwiabe]

I'd just like to comment on how ironic it is that abes22 had no shortage of likes to give the recent facebook statuses I made that were critical of Islam.

I guess what you're really trying to say is that we should all be very sensitive about Christianity. Other religions? Nah, no need. They're not the "one true religion".

The hypocrisy of your double standard is utterly astounding.

[enwiabe]

I have seen cases where the name-calling is acceptable i.e. sometimes there are people whose posts are so stupid you wonder how hard they got knocked.

Sorry, I am just curious, when is it EVER genuinely  acceptable to name-call someone. Surely, stupid posts to you, is perhaps,  real/true to the other person. What happens then? They are warranted to be name-called simply because of your perception that their post is stupid? I don't understand, are you saying, that posts can be objectively interpreted now?

I would make the argument that when somebody posts with the intent to cause harm (e.g. wilful misogyny, bigotry, xenophobia etc.) then harsh words are often the only response that can appropriately encapsulate the severity of their actions.

[abeybaby]

I'd just like to comment on how ironic it is that abes22 had no shortage of likes to give the recent facebook statuses I made that were critical of Islam.

I guess what you're really trying to say is that we should all be very sensitive about Christianity. Other religions? Nah, no need. They're not the "one true religion".

The hypocrisy of your double standard is utterly astounding.

I liked something because I agreed with it. Your quotes were objective, and true. They were not false or misrepresented, so I liked them. I have never stood for moral high ground of Christianity, if you remember correctly, I said on that evolution thread:

I have no problem with criticizing religions, I regularly make criticism of religions, including my own.


This is exactly the bahaviour I was talking about - why am i being attacked? You can make any point you like whilst remaining respectful.

[pi]

I have seen cases where the name-calling is acceptable i.e. sometimes there are people whose posts are so stupid you wonder how hard they got knocked.

Sorry, I am just curious, when is it EVER genuinely  acceptable to name-call someone. Surely, stupid posts to you, is perhaps,  real/true to the other person. What happens then? They are warranted to be name-called simply because of your perception that their post is stupid? I don't understand, are you saying, that posts can be objectively interpreted now?

I would make the argument that when somebody posts with the intent to cause harm (e.g. wilful misogyny, bigotry, xenophobia etc.) then harsh words are often the only response that can appropriately encapsulate the severity of their actions.

I'm with Water on this one, if someone is causing harm to others, I see no need to descend to their level. Show them the rule book and show them the bannhammer, but there is no need to feed their hate and ruining your own reputation by being a hot-head and responding to them on their level.

Especially on a forum where many look up to other users (such as yourself, the founder of this amazing site!), going to their level of insults etc. is a pretty bad look imo.

[thushan]

"I would make the argument that when somebody posts with the intent to cause harm (e.g. wilful misogyny, bigotry, xenophobia etc.) then harsh words are often the only response that can appropriately encapsulate the severity of their actions."

Depends on what the purpose is. Is it to express your disgust, or is it to change their opinion? If it's the latter, then harsh words may not work.

"I'd just like to comment on how ironic it is that abes22 had no shortage of likes to give the recent facebook statuses I made that were critical of Islam.
I guess what you're really trying to say is that we should all be very sensitive about Christianity. Other religions? Nah, no need. They're not the "one true religion".
The hypocrisy of your double standard is utterly astounding."

Enwiabe, with all due respect, I would like to say that it's best to argue the fallacy in thinking rather than the person.