Zionism

[mr.politiks]

Rational/10

You want to turn this into a Hamas vs IDF debate based on your conclusion that even though I stated terrorism is immoral, and i stated that Hamas terrorises and aims to terrorise, that i still somehow support terrorism.

This is why I wanted to focus in on the action of terrorising

Killing civilians is not the only way of terrorising.

And can you seriously believe what the IDF labels as non-civilian targets are justifiably targetable. This is why i distinguished between the Hamas military wing, and its governmental actions.

For goodness sake, the IDF has targeted Palestinian journalists and cameramen and then said they weren't civilians because they are affliated with the government.

Your opinion is clearly shaped by nothing more than IDF propaganda and your own myopic view of the conflict.

[enwiabe]

Maybe they're less personal to him. He might care, but this is more personal. It's like how one would be a lot more concerned with what's happening in one's family as opposed to what is happening on the other side of the world.

And that's it. I just want him to admit his bias and understand that his views have been compromised by a lifetime of brainwashing from his friends and family.

I had to make that same realisation as well before I could come to a more impartial view of the situation. I still struggle with it, which is why I'm never going to claim moral superiority on the issue. I couldn't, and in fact I don't think many can. But you can clearly point out where people are showing obvious moral failing in their view of the conflict. And supporting a terrorist organisation is an absurd position to be in.

[Biceps]

Israel does target civilians there is an instance where a person i know had an auntie purposefully killed by an attack dog because she was wearing a veil...

I don't support Hamas but i also don't support Israel's seizure of the West Bank.

[enwiabe]

Israel does target civilians there is an instance where a person i know had an auntie purposefully killed by an attack dog because she was wearing a veil...

I don't support Hamas but i also don't support Israel's seizure of the West Bank.

That seems like a horribly inefficient way of killing people. Do you have more details? Just seems a bit absurd.

I was also dismayed by Israel's seizure of the West Bank. That's why I was really glad when they gave it back: "After the 2007 split between Fatah and Hamas, the West Bank areas under Palestinian control are an exclusive part of the Palestinian Authority, while the Gaza Strip is ruled by Hamas."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank

The next step will be giving back half of Jerusalem. It's not going to happen with the current fractured right wingnut coalition (avigdor lieberman as foreign minister what even is that), but I hold high hopes for some real progress over the next decade when Likud get ejected on their fat asses.

[mr.politiks]

Gave it back

You need to read a bit more, in all honesty.

[enwiabe]

Gave it back

You need to read a bit more, in all honesty.

Irony, given you didn't even know the IDF launches probes into civilian casualties. And entirely irrelevant, because I gave a credible source in support of that claim.

[Planck's constant]

Were there not unprovoked rocket attacks against Israeli towns a week or so ago?

[mr.politiks]

"After the 2007 split between Fatah and Hamas, the West Bank areas under Palestinian control are an exclusive part of the Palestinian Authority, while the Gaza Strip is ruled by Hamas."

This is meant to mean they gave the entire west bank "back"

In the same article:

"As of December 2010, 327,750 Israelis live in the 121 settlements in the West Bank officially recognised by the Israeli government, 192,000 Israelis live in settlements in East Jerusalem.[5] There are approximately 100 further settlement outposts which are not officially recognized by the Israeli government and are illegal under Israeli law, but have been provided with infrastructure, water, sewage, and other services by the authorities."

So even though it officially doesn belong to Israel, its ok to for 121 settlements to continue to persist, and for the government to still maintain teh viability of "Illegal" settlements.

And its also ok to maintain a military occupation with military outposts scattered across teh entire West Bank territory.

Please reconsider the UN resolutions at the beginning of the thread.

[Truck]

Firstly Norman Finkelstein is not necessarily a reputable source, he is one of the most prominent haters of Israel, whereas Dershowitz (who wrote my source) is one of the most prominent Israel supporters. So read that link within that context, but I challenge you to find a single lie within it... I personally agree with Dershowitz (and it is a well sourced and reputable book), hence why I linked it to you.

Moving on, I can't possibly understand people who say "Israel targets civilians" and actually believe that. That is not just a factual inaccuracy, it is a base lie. Looking at the recent conflict (pillar of defense) - the Gaza strip is one of the most densely populated (i think it might even be number 1) places in the world. Hamas places it's missile launchers between schools, mosques and hospitals... if you need a source just google it lol. For Israel's civilian:militant ratio to be as low as it is within this context is incredible.

The main problem with trying to convince people that Israel deliberately targets civilians is that it has absolutely no reason to do so. The nation is trying to minimize casualties in order to appear as the moral/humanist side, so if it did try to target civilians then that would simply go against everything its trying to achieve. There's no real evidence supporting claims that the IDF targets civilians, however it is a common fact that has been affirmed by numerous top Hamas politicians that Hamas does everything within its power to kill as many civilians as possible.

I too do not support settlement building on the West Bank.. but there is a difference between disagreeing with Likud (the current right-wing party in power in Israel) and arguing that Zionism is racism, a UN resolution that itself was repealed. Lets not forget that it was the UN who voted predominantly in favor of establishing the state of Israel in the first place, and it was 6 Arab nations who all attacked Israel in 1948 and got convincingly beaten, which lead to their loss of land.

[enwiabe]

For goodness sake, the IDF has targeted Palestinian journalists and cameramen and then said they weren't civilians because they are affliated with the government.

Your opinion is clearly shaped by nothing more than IDF propaganda and your own myopic view of the conflict.

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Israeli_Defense_Force_admits_to_targeting_media_center_in_Gaza_City_airstrike

You're basically just recycling everything I said. Are you really not beyond "bounces off me and sticks to you ner ner ner"?

Where did I ever say the IDF does no wrong and that the Israeli government does no wrong? I simply said they don't have a mission objective of targeting civilians. That's it. You say they do and then come up with nothing but high-pitched claims with no evidence to back up your assertions.

[JellyDonut]

If you're going to condemn Israel and get morally outraged, why only Israel? I've never once seen him get angry at other injustices. It shows him to be blinkered and single-minded.

On the other hand, western nations aren't explicitly expressing support for Congolese rapists. We do have a vested interest in any actions, taken by supported nations, that we deem illegitimate.

Also, of course Hamas is embedded within civilian populations. All of them are penned up there in the first place and that's sorta the definition of a militia

[enwiabe]

"After the 2007 split between Fatah and Hamas, the West Bank areas under Palestinian control are an exclusive part of the Palestinian Authority, while the Gaza Strip is ruled by Hamas."

This is meant to mean they gave the entire west bank "back"

In the same article:

"As of December 2010, 327,750 Israelis live in the 121 settlements in the West Bank officially recognised by the Israeli government, 192,000 Israelis live in settlements in East Jerusalem.[5] There are approximately 100 further settlement outposts which are not officially recognized by the Israeli government and are illegal under Israeli law, but have been provided with infrastructure, water, sewage, and other services by the authorities."

So even though it officially doesn belong to Israel, its ok to for 121 settlements to continue to persist, and for the government to still maintain teh viability of "Illegal" settlements.

And its also ok to maintain a military occupation with military outposts scattered across teh entire West Bank territory.

Please reconsider the UN resolutions at the beginning of the thread.

I had forgotten that your worldview was so black and white that it has to be everything or nothing at all. My mistake.

Obviously the settlers are lunatics, and the Likud should be thrown out on their ass for supporting them. But the fact of the matter is that most of the West Bank was ceded back, and more is forthcoming when the peace process advances.

Israel has forcibly removed its citizens from settlements before in order to give the land back to Palestinian control, and it will do so again.

[Truck]

"After the 2007 split between Fatah and Hamas, the West Bank areas under Palestinian control are an exclusive part of the Palestinian Authority, while the Gaza Strip is ruled by Hamas."

This is meant to mean they gave the entire west bank "back"

In the same article:

"As of December 2010, 327,750 Israelis live in the 121 settlements in the West Bank officially recognised by the Israeli government, 192,000 Israelis live in settlements in East Jerusalem.[5] There are approximately 100 further settlement outposts which are not officially recognized by the Israeli government and are illegal under Israeli law, but have been provided with infrastructure, water, sewage, and other services by the authorities."

So even though it officially doesn belong to Israel, its ok to for 121 settlements to continue to persist, and for the government to still maintain teh viability of "Illegal" settlements.

And its also ok to maintain a military occupation with military outposts scattered across teh entire West Bank territory.

Please reconsider the UN resolutions at the beginning of the thread.

The problem with not having military occupations is that when they do ease up on restrictions, Intifada's happen.

[enwiabe]

If you're going to condemn Israel and get morally outraged, why only Israel? I've never once seen him get angry at other injustices. It shows him to be blinkered and single-minded.

On the other hand, western nations aren't explicitly expressing support for Congolese rapists. We do have a vested interest in any actions, taken by supported nations, that we deem illegitimate.

Also, of course Hamas is embedded within civilian populations. All of them are penned up there in the first place and that's sorta the definition of a militia

There's a difference between "being penned up there" and this: http://www.examiner.com/article/hamas-leader-hides-home-near-hospital-to-thwart-israeli-air-strikes

[CaiTheHuman]

Israel actively drops leaflets and alerts people before they initiate an air-strike in set location in gaza in order to minimize causalities . They are not firing indiscriminately like Hamas does daily into Southern Israel. It is an absurd someone raised in such a civilized society would support a terrorist group like Hamas.