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Lolly

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Lolly's French revolution question thread
« on: November 03, 2013, 05:51:49 pm »
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Hey guys,

So over the last few days I've been revising France and I've realised that there is a lot I still don't know. I'm going to put my questions here and hopefully we can figure them out together. Sorry for being pedantic. Most of these questions concern minor details which probably won't matter that much on the day ( except maybe the political groups). Feel free to ask your own questions as well. ( any question you like :) )

I'm going to add to this as I go:

AOS1
Cahiers de doleances - date/timeframe?
What is the difference between the lettres de cachet and lit de justice? What would you call Louis' action on the 17th of November ( 178....7?)

AOS2

 I'm still quite unclear about the political groups and affiliations. I need to get my head around these. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm going to do more reading.

Feuillants  - Constitutional Monarchists. The men of 1789 e.g. Lafayette.
Brissotins - far left -Brissot's group. Replaced Feuillants?
Dantonists - Left? Danton's followers, obviously.  I need to know more about Danton ( apart from the fact that he was in all of those committees and tribunals and such)
Girondins - Right wing, represented the bourgeosie and factory owners.
Herbertists - Again, I need to read more about Herbert
Montagnards -" The Mountain" so...right or left? I think it was right. Which groups? Girondins?
Plain - centre, unaffiliated. Independents or were there groups as well?
Jacobins - represented the sans culottes
(Is that all?)

When did the Jacobins become part of government? When did it become a political party rather than just a political club?

The assembly became more radical after...La Patrice en Danger, is that right? Are there any other obvious shifts in government? ( I suppose that would have been the case after each new Constitution was made)

Extraordinary Tribunal - what was this for? ( The war effort?> connected to victory at Valmy?)

What is the distinction between September 5th 1793 and October 10 re: declaration of revolutionary government? Why did they still have to make a formal decree of revolutionary government on the 4th of December?

The threat from the Duke of Brunswick never eventuated after Louis' execution. Same with the declaration of Pilnitz. Lolwhy?

The Law of Suspects was made more severe on June 10- how so?

Danton resigned from the Committee of Public Safety on July 10 1793, but why?

Good luck for Friday everyone :)
« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 06:02:12 pm by lollymatron »

osgood

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Re: Lolly's French revolution question thread
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2013, 06:34:07 pm »
+2
Hey guys,

So over the last few days I've been revising France and I've realised that there is a lot I still don't know. I'm going to put my questions here and hopefully we can figure them out together. Sorry for being pedantic. Most of these questions concern minor details which probably won't matter that much on the day ( except maybe the political groups). Feel free to ask your own questions as well. ( any question you like :) )

I'm going to add to this as I go:

AOS1
Cahiers de doleances - date/timeframe?
Fine to say Spring 1789, is pretty unclear- I had Jan 1789

What is the difference between the lettres de cachet and lit de justice? What would you call Louis' action on the 17th of November ( 178....7?)
Lettre de cachet- arbitrarily sent warward citoyens to jail.
lit de justice forced parlements to the kings will- i.e. passing legislation- Novemver 1787 was then a lit de justice (unless you're talking about an event I don't know of)

AOS2

 I'm still quite unclear about the political groups and affiliations. I need to get my head around these. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm going to do more reading.

Feuillants  - Constitutional Monarchists. The men of 1789 e.g. Lafayette.
Brissotins - far left -Brissot's group. Replaced Feuillants?
Dantonists - Left? Danton's followers, obviously.  I need to know more about Danton ( apart from the fact that he was in all of those committees and tribunals and such)
Girondins - Right wing, represented the bourgeosie and factory owners.
Herbertists - Again, I need to read more about Herbert
Montagnards -" The Mountain" so...right or left? I think it was right. Which groups? Girondins?
Plain - centre, unaffiliated. Independents or were there groups as well?
Jacobins - represented the sans culottes
(Is that all?)


When did the Jacobins become part of government? When did it become a political party rather than just a political club?
There were no political parties per se during our period of the French revolution. they were always clubs.

The assembly became more radical after...La Patrice en Danger, is that right? Are there any other obvious shifts in government? ( I suppose that would have been the case after each new Constitution was made)
This is very complex Lolly- could be an entire 10 marker :p

Extraordinary Tribunal - what was this for? ( The war effort?> connected to victory at Valmy?)
Was this the revolutionary tribunal? If so, sentenced suspect citizens to the guillotine :p

What is the distinction between September 5th 1793 and October 10 re: declaration of revolutionary government? Why did they still have to make a formal decree of revolutionary government on the 4th of December?
September 5, October 10 and 4 December are three distinct, and important events. Distinguish between Declaration of Rev gov and law of Frimaire!

The threat from the Duke of Brunswick never eventuated after Louis' execution. Same with the declaration of Pilnitz. Lolwhy?
lol 'annihilation of paris' was probably more difficult than expected but there sure was a war between Austria and France!!

The Law of Suspects was made more severe on June 10- how so?

Danton resigned from the Committee of Public Safety on July 10 1793, but why?
His feeling, feeling heart (thought the terror should end- actually, i'm not sure about this but he did but 1794. There was a reason but it may not have been of his own volition. sorry!)

Good luck for Friday everyone :)
History: Revolutions and Global Politics summer tutoring. PM.

http://www.atarnotes.com/?p=tutoring&a=view&do=update&what=details&item_id=525

Cort

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Re: Lolly's French revolution question thread
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2013, 07:19:08 pm »
+2
Cahier's can differ. I normally be more specific and relate the cahier with the convocation of the Estates General itself. Hence from Jan-April 1789. Or you can say that publications/political pamphlets against the monarchy itself started as soon as Spring 1788, or from May 1788 onwards. This was during the time when the King removed the parlements and replaced them with Plenary Courts. This linked to the Day of Tiles.

Lit de Justice:
Essentially the use of the King's absolute rule to bypass legislation from the King. Examples include on August 15 1787, November 17, 1787 and May 8 1788.

Lettres of de cachet. Can essentially view it as lit de justice in a letter form. If it tells you you're moving to Bastille Prison - no arguments there boss.

AoS 2:
Affiliations and groups are not (that) important, but it is good to have a basic idea of what they were. Since AoS2 does focus on historian's opinion quite a bit, unless you're planning to write an essay on them.

Feulliants: Led by Lafayette and was created after the event of Champ de Mars (July 17 1791). They were born out of the Jacobin Club, with about 500+ members leaving. They, like its predecessor The Society of Thirty, wanted to maintain a constitutional monarchy. Many of them were bourgeois or landowners. They were essentially the 'men of 1789' that fell due to the actions of King Louis XVI and the growing radicalisation.

Brissotins/ Girodins: Led by Brissot himself. Many of the deputies were bourgeois that came from the province of Girode. Prior to 1793 they were known as Brissots, being led by Jacques Brissot. The main outlying point about this group is that they supported Federalism. Their removal, as well as their calls for decentralisation would be a key factor in the Federalist Revolt (June-October 1793).

Dantonists aka Cordeliers, I think. I never encountered Dantonists before. Founded in April 1790. Generally more radical because of their low membership fee. Hence, it attracted radical workers (sans cullotes). Main political idea was direct democracy and right of insurrection.

Herbertists: Somewhere from 1792 onward they came trotting about. Main driving force behind the fall of the Girondins from the National Assembly from late May -June 1793. Closely, if not, represented the higher majority of radical workers. Main events they perpetuated was creating tensions with Robesy himself from late September 1793 onwards, and supported radical measures being put into place. This include Law of Suspects and Law of Maximum.

Montagnards: Was made up of some Girondins and such, however their removal from June 1793 gave Jacobins the full power. Hence most link Montagnards with the Jacobins. Originally represented the bourgeois, but slowly became reliant on the sans cullotes after acknowledging their power. Hence their concessions made.

Jacobins becoming part of the Government, and when it became more than just a club. Osgood's right, no political party. However, their growing influence allowed them to subsume authority and hence they become a government (or a dictatorship, if you're looking from an orthodox view). This can be evident from the Three Law's (Suspect, Frimarie and 22 Priarial) that granted them centralisation, the removal of other political parties (Girondins in June 1793, Herberists in March 1794 and Dantonists in April 1794). They were the surviving cub that wielded a bucket load of power.

Assembly's Radicalisation.
The Legislative Assembly or the National Assembly? I'll go with Legislative. It lasted from 1791 September to 20 September 1792. Many factors led to its radicalisation, but predominantly, it can be blamed on:

A) Growing disillusionment of the Sans Cullotes: Sharp falls in economy due to the falling value of assignats created social tensions. Poor harvests was also seen from 1791 onwards as well. The Sans Cullotes therefore linked their economic grievances with a political dilemma and believed that it (during 1792 onwards) that it was the Court's fault trying to ruin the Revolution. This would lead to the Sans Cullote's popular call for the General Law of Maximum (29 September 1793).

B) Early failures of 1972 campaign: French incompetence to stop the stagnation of Austrian and Prussian advance was exacerbated by failures and Marat's "L'Ami du Peuple", a radical pamphlet. Failures meant the psychological thought of defeat. This 'radicalisation' can be seen in March 1793 when the soldiers murdered their own General Dillion in thought that he would be betraying the revolution.

C) Growing ideas of Republicanism. The significance here is the King's Flight to Varennes. Because of this flight, it, as Tackett states, created "social consequences", and the Champ de Mars Massacre only reaffirmed people's belief that Republicanism was the way to go. People has always felt that their King was a counter revolutionary force, and only the Declaration of Pillnitz ( August 27 1791) only confirmed it. Hence the rise of republicanism. Constitutional Monarchy was dead.

D) Other active events: Such as the assault on Tulieries, etc. This threw the king off the boat, and the Paris Communes would assume authority over the National Guard through their creation of the Insurrectionary Commune (19 August 1792).

Extraordinary/Revolutionary Tribunal. Osgood makes a clear point. It was initially created by Danton as a result of the September Massacre. Made to deliver revolutionary justice on any forms of traitors, but by October 1793 they passed a decree which sanctioned to only a 10 day preceding. This would be changed by the 3 Law's that made it death or freedom.

September 5 1793: It was the invasion of the National Convention by Herbet that demanded a maximum on grain. This also included the creation of revolutionary armies that would terrorise the population in order to protect their grain trading. Hence, the religious terror. The most important part of this event is, however, that it placed Herbet into conflict with the Jacobins and Robespierre. They used 70,000 (or some other number, it had a 7 and a couple of zero's) National Guards to FORCE the N.C to comply. Robespierre did not enjoy this bullying, hence their centralisation from September 1793 onwards.

October 10 1793: It was the Decree of Revolutionary Government which declared that it would be held until enemies have been removed. All government organisations would be placed under the control of the CPS. This included the Executive Committe, ministers, army, etc. Guess who's in charge of the CPS? Robesy.

Brunswick Manifesto and Declaration of Pillnitz.
I'm not too sure here, but it could be (or it is) the fact of the French military victories. The September Massacres (2-5 Sept. 1792) for example, gave about 100,000-200,000 into the front. The Paris Commune's use of 300,000 men conscription on 24 feb 1793 also gave power to French army as well. Others include Napolean's tactical genius.

Law of Suspects: Severity could be objective. But if you're thinking, yes, it is: It's because the Law of Suspects was as vague as the Soviet's Criminal Code. It was vague and anyone who were suspects were to be placed under custody. This included actions such as their inability of justify their means of existence and performance of civic duties, or , refused of certificates of revolutionary patriotism that the Paris Commune handed out.

No clue on Danton's resignation. Off the top of my head I believe he became a minister of foreign affairs instead.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 07:22:15 pm by Cort »
I actually have no idea what I'm saying or talking about.

maturegambino

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Lolly's French revolution question thread
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2013, 07:21:39 pm »
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can we just refer to the several groups such as the comm of general security, public safety, reps-en-mission to the one date of the law of frimaire?
that would be less troubling than remembering the separate establishment dates of each committee.

or am i completely wrong and the law of frimaire established something entirely different :(

Lolly

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Re: Lolly's French revolution question thread
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2013, 07:26:55 pm »
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Thank you so so much, both of you. I did not expect such prompt or detailed replies. Thankyou!! :)

Cort

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Re: Lolly's French revolution question thread
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2013, 07:53:49 pm »
+2
can we just refer to the several groups such as the comm of general security, public safety, reps-en-mission to the one date of the law of frimaire?
that would be less troubling than remembering the separate establishment dates of each committee.

or am i completely wrong and the law of frimaire established something entirely different :(

If what I'm reading it correct- you can just link that such groups were given such power as the result of the law of frimaire. Or more accurately, the CPS. Knowledge of the creation of the CGS, Public Safety isn't really *that* essential, but the safest bet is to know their significance. Know at least one or two points about them. You might need them for either a question c or a question d. Only need to fill a couple of lines.

Otherwise, you can just group them up as the "Organs of the Terror, because they did [something not too positive that the modern society wouldn't condone. But they were such nice guys!] ".
« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 07:58:09 pm by Cort »
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maturegambino

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Lolly's French revolution question thread
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2013, 09:33:16 pm »
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thank you so much :D

DoctorWho

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Re: Lolly's French revolution question thread
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2013, 10:47:08 pm »
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Can someone briefly explain the financial reforms that each minister proposed? How did these aggravate the revolutionary situation?

Cort

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Re: Lolly's French revolution question thread
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2013, 12:24:37 am »
+2
Can someone briefly explain the financial reforms that each minister proposed? How did these aggravate the revolutionary situation?

The 'main' reforms can be seen from Calonne's reforms. Brienne's reforms is merely an extension. The earlier ones, Turgot (before Necker), or Joly de Fleury (after Neker) did suggest some reforms that held physiocratic ideals, but they were rejected. Not important to know, but it's good to know that they continued on with borrowing several million livres that further deepened the debt they already owe to foreign investors.

What Calonne proposed would be rather radical to previous financial reforms. He wanted to remove taxation priviliege and create a 'territorial subvention' that every estate would pay; no exemptions.  This would minimize the excessive taxes the Third Etat, and it was this presentation at the Assembly of Notables that would create a widespread dissent in the assembly, aka, kick-starting the aristocratic revolt.

Brienne changed Calonne's proposals because the financial system was getting worse. Brienne altered it by retaining the land tax, but modifying other reforms (such as reversing Calonne's proposal of abolishing the internal tax barrier or w/e.). Nonetheless, when presented towards the Parlements themselves, you know what happened.

But if anyone knows anything beyond Brienne, fill me in. Necker was recalled, but the financial reforms, I think was 'reformed' through the suggestions of the convocation of the Estates General and the cahiers themselves.
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DoctorWho

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Re: Lolly's French revolution question thread
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2013, 02:44:03 am »
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Man I'm draining this thread. Anyway, can someone explain to me what the federalist revolt was all about? Who was involved? What caused it?

DoctorWho

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Re: Lolly's French revolution question thread
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2013, 02:51:06 am »
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And yet another question :P ok, so we have the national assembly, constituent assembly, national convention etc. Can someone tell me the timeframes for each? Also, what they did and wanted to do? Thanks!

Cort

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Re: Lolly's French revolution question thread
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2013, 08:59:59 am »
+1
Man I'm draining this thread. Anyway, can someone explain to me what the federalist revolt was all about? Who was involved? What caused it?

The Federalist Revolt was from June 1793 - October 1793. The purpose was that it started due to a) the expulsion of the Girondin deputies from late May - June 1793 (want me to expand on that?) and, although it's rather vague, many in the province in Gironde supported "Federalism" itself. This is around south-east of France. Federalism was an ideology which wanted a decentralization of power as well as autonomy for the local committees/in their own province. The current Jacobin policy was becoming more centralized, as seen as the two great Committees. Thirdly, removing the Girondin deputies also, on a local level, removing their representatives. How'd you feel if I removed your rep? People will obviously be pissed.

Thus, the revolt was against the current political repertoire. However, the deputies in the National Convetion interpreted it as counter-revolution itself, similar to the Vendee Rebellion which was about reversing the revolution. Nonetheless, Bosher and Doyle would credit the atmosphere to be driven by "fear & paranoia". The most important significance of the Federalist Revolt is however, that it was one of the two counter-revolutionary activities that exacerbated the revolution to become more radical.
--

The National Assembly:
17 June 1789 - 31 September 1791
Purpose: It was the assembly that were supposely made to pass legislation to create the constituional monarchy.  After the 1791 constitution was finished, the National Assembly was dissolved and it became the Legislative Assembly. However, do note that during this time period, the religious reforms occurred and the King decided to have a clandestine escape.

Legislative Assembly:
1 October 1791 - September 1792
Purpose: The legislative body (I'm not good with this political stuff, sorry) that sought to maintain a constitutional monarchy. However, much of this moderate period had ended when Brissot aka the Brissotins aka the Girondins took a more radical alternative and decided to wage war. This gave rise to the sans cullotes, because by the 9th of August 1792, they created the Insurrectionary Commune which gave them control over the National Guard. Previously, the National Guard were opened up to 'passive citizen' by the end of July as a result of the Paris Commune's demands. After the Storming of the Tuileries on 10th August, the 47/48 of the Paris Commune demanded the Legislative Assembly to be dissolved.

Because they had angry, drunk men. A whole lotta' them.

National Convention:
22? Sometime in September. Could be the 29th - 1795
This was the republican body which, after the Constitutional body was fallen, pushed for 1793 Constitution on late June (24 or 27), but it was never fully ratified because CPS/CGS took over. Nonetheless,  the only positive reform I know off the top of my head was the creation of the republican calender by Oct. 1793. During this period however, you can envisage the two Great Committees to be widely responsible for using Terror to repress against counter-revolutionary activities - before the Reign of Terror occurred.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 06:20:06 pm by Cort »
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DoctorWho

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Re: Lolly's French revolution question thread
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2013, 05:57:40 pm »
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Thank you, Cort! Ermm, Day of Daggers? Run me through? If you don't mind :)

Cort

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Re: Lolly's French revolution question thread
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2013, 06:19:09 pm »
+3
Thank you, Cort! Ermm, Day of Daggers? Run me through? If you don't mind :)

27-28 February, 1791. 400 armed aristocrats had surrounded to protect the monarchy. Lafayette had arrested all 400. The most important thing however, is that it created the perception that it was both an attempt by the old nobility order to aid the family to escape, and, the fact that it slowly crystallize the fear that the King was not siding with the population on the Revolution. People had loved King Louis XVI, and although the monarchy thought they were herded like pigs during the October Days (5 Oct 1789); people still celebrated because this mythical being was enjoying a can of coke in Melbourne. It is however, that this sense of fear became more predominant as a result of this event, and it was consolidated that the King tried to abandon the revolution when he tried to escape to Varennes.

Nonetheless, I can only recommend to write this Day of Daggers an event that preceded the growing radicalism because it was seen as an attempt to escape.


« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 06:39:11 pm by Cort »
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Ozil

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Re: Lolly's French revolution question thread
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2013, 07:03:08 pm »
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Just a quick question,
Does anyone have some good examples of prominent pamphlets during 1788-89. 'What is the Third Estate?' (January 1789) is obviously a well known one but are there any others that are worth remembering? (Just asking this as on the 2010 exam it specifically asked about publications and was unable to get the depth required in my answer) 
Cheers