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June 16, 2024, 04:18:00 pm

Poll

Who will win???

Donald Trump
22 (33.8%)
Hillary Clinton
40 (61.5%)
Gary Johnson
1 (1.5%)
Jill Stein
1 (1.5%)
Evan McMullin
1 (1.5%)

Total Members Voted: 60

Author Topic: American presidential election  (Read 16688 times)  Share 

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TheProphetPancake

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Re: American presidential election
« Reply #75 on: November 09, 2016, 10:08:56 pm »
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If y'all want some perspective on why Trump won and the mindset behind his 'silent majority', Michael Moore wrote a fantastic letter, deffs worth a read if you're interested: http://michaelmoore.com/trumpwillwin/
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vox nihili

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Re: American presidential election
« Reply #76 on: November 09, 2016, 10:33:43 pm »
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Her policy positions are agreeable to you. The American working class feel very differently and I think the most significant part of this result is just how badly they were underestimated. Clinton is as establishment as they get, up there with Bush and Kennedy and by all accounts the perception of an influential elite costing the average American their opportunities to succeed resonated with the country. Her campaign didn't really fight on that axis and it seems to have been a mistake (calling Trump supporters deplorable was monumentally stupid).

I also disagree that the email scandal was a non-issue, there was plenty of content that fed right into the above concerns about corruption and self-interest, from being given debate questions in advance to inappropriate use of money etc.

Agreeable perhaps wasn't the right word to use. Her policies are superior to Trump's. I was giving an opinion, so I highly doubt that anybody here reading this took what I said about her policies to be a hard fact, anymore than they took my views on her personal attributes to be fact.
I suspect that Clinton lost today because of her perception as part of the elite that ruined America, just as you pointed out. Her campaign did focus very heavily on the problems facing America. Her rhetoric and, indeed, her policy output was very heavily focused on restoring fairness to the economy and trying to deal with the rising inequality in the US. Like Trump, she also focused very heavily on the theme of jobs. However, the American people clearly haven't been able to remove their image of her as part of the problem she had hoped to address.

On the e-mails, again non-issue was probably not the right word. Objectively, it is a non-issue. She didn't do anything illegal and, really, the fact that she used a private e-mail survey shouldn't be a big deal. The parallel I drew to Australia goes some way to highlight the fact that, ordinarily, this wouldn't be a big deal. However, it is certainly the case that, as you point out, it played into perceptions of Hilary Clinton as this corrupt elite who is above the law and a part of some Washington set hell bent on remaining in power, no matter what. The reality, however, is likely very far from this. I have no doubt that Hillary wanted to be in power and enjoyed power on those occasions she had it; however, the idea that she is actually corrupt is not supported by any evidence. This contrasts very nicely with the real evidence that Trump paid no tax for nearly two decades and that he may have committed sexual assault. 





Anyway, to be clear to everyone on here. I have largely spoken thus far from a partisan position and have refrained from analysing the reasons for Trump's election etc. It is not lost on me, more than any other Clinton supporter I'm sure, that this result reflects a very deep divide in the US and has been fuelled by a combination of fear of globalisation and fear of immigration, along with a healthy dose of nationalism. It is very clear that a huge number of Americans feel as though they have been failed and—in my view, incorrectly—have sought out a radically new leader to address those issues.

I am left with absolutely no doubt, though, that the Americans made the wrong choice today. They elected someone who is frequently racist, constantly degrades women—to the point that he has bragged about sexually assaulting them. He has made anti-Semitic remarks and accused Mexicans of being thieves and rapists.
To add insult to injury, his policy positions—when he's bothered to have them—are nothing short of moronic. He believes that women shouldn't have the right to abort their foetus, despite this being a constitutional right in the US. He believes in protectionism and has advocated policies such as the abolition of NAFTA and 40% tarrifs on Chinese products, which will only compound American economic woes. He is fundamentally anti-immigration. He has proposed the removal of all Muslims from the US and believes that America should build a wall between it and Mexico. He believes in massively increasing the spend on infrastructure and, at the same time, lowering taxes, without any indication as to how he plans on paying for it. To add insult to injury, he believes that those tax cuts should be focused on wealthy Americans—essentially a middle finger to the poor, white Americans that voted for him. Finally (well not finally but I've had enough now), he believes in the complete abolition of Obamacare, a relatively weak attempt—to be truthful—at delivering at least some healthcare to America's poorest, in particular. Once again, another middle finger to the people who voted for him.
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mahler004

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Re: American presidential election
« Reply #77 on: November 09, 2016, 11:04:35 pm »
+1
However, the American people clearly haven't been able to remove their image of her as part of the problem she had hoped to address.

I basically agree with everything you've written. I put it to someone else that this is frustrated voters throwing a brick into the window of the establishment. Same deal with Brexit. Books will be written about the past 18 months for decades. There's clearly been a failure by the centre (both left and right) to engage people. It's how you get President-Elect Trump, and Bernie Sanders doing quite well in the Democratic primary (and Brexit, and the Austrian election results, and One Nation with four Senators...). People are seeking extremes - on both the left and right.

And yeah. Clinton ran on a detailed, progressive policy platform. Trump didn't have any policies beyond platitudes ('build a wall!', 'bomb the ... out of them.')

On the whole, it's just thoroughly depressing. This (along with Brexit) reflects an increasingly polarised, hostile, closed-off world. We're definitely in for a rough ride. I'm not too concerned about what Trump will be doing domestically (I'm not American, after all,) but what he could do in trade and foreign policy is deeply concerning.

I mean ... people were saying the same thing about George W Bush and Reagan. Trump is neither of those people, I feel confident in saying that he'll be a terrible President, but, life will go on.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 11:07:28 pm by mahler004 »
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thushan

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Re: American presidential election
« Reply #78 on: November 10, 2016, 09:21:59 am »
+1
"He believes in protectionism and has advocated policies such as the abolition of NAFTA and 40% tarrifs on Chinese products, which will only compound American economic woes."


Trump is an economic protectionist (or believes that is what his constituency wants). I wonder whether his voters are aware that this would make goods a lot more expensive and cost of living to shoot through the roof.

BUT. Even if they do, I wonder whether his constituency may be so engrossed in their nationalism that they may not care so much that prices of goods are rising - because Trump could so easily say that this is part of the process of "making America great again". Something along the same vein of "better to die on your feet than to live on your knees". The same feelings that would make people enlist themselves into the military should there be a war (ON America, not a proxy war) to defend their nation.

Trump's economic policies are extremely risky. Simultaneous increase in infrastructure spending and lowering of company tax - probably intended to give the economy a debt-fuelled stimulus and encourage the development of local industry (local because he's likely averse to foreign involvement) is going to put the country in massive amounts of debt. My guess is that he's hoping that this could lead to the development of a competitive edge over other countries that would cause America's economy to expand long term - to allow to repay that debt. It's a HUGE gamble though - and can backfire really badly.

I honestly think his constituency have had enough - they don't care what happens next because to them, nothing can be worse than the status quo. From the point of the working class, economic growth means very little to them - because either way, they are not reaping the benefits.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2016, 09:25:08 am by thushan »
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anna.xo

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Re: American presidential election
« Reply #79 on: November 13, 2016, 04:07:33 pm »
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One things for sure though - great time to go and spend your hard-earned moolah in America
Last I checked, $1 USD= $1.30 AUD
Go now before the walls up!  ;)

$1.33 now ;)
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