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June 16, 2024, 06:20:05 pm

Poll

Should the name and/or date of Aus day be changed?

Yes
33 (57.9%)
No
14 (24.6%)
On the fence
10 (17.5%)

Total Members Voted: 57

Author Topic: Should the date of Australia day (and/or name) be changed?  (Read 7566 times)  Share 

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EEEEEEP

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Should the date of Australia day (and/or name) be changed?
« on: August 02, 2017, 06:20:47 pm »
+5
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-20/national-support-of-australia-day-date-change/8636134
https://theconversation.com/changing-australia-day-is-pointless-and-there-is-much-to-celebrate-71010
...
It is no doubt that there has been much discussion in regards to Australia day.  There are also many perspectives:
From the native people:
-  the 26th of January is not representative of who we are as Australians and it is certainly not inclusive of the first people
- The 26th of Jan is offensive and is known as INVASION day for "us"
- If the reason you celebrate Australia Day has nothing to do with the specific date itself, then why is it such a bad thing to move it to a date where a large portion of our population won’t feel offended?

From the Non native people or pro Aus day
- For many people there is no historical meaning (just as many who celebrate christmas aren't religious)
- Problems  will not be solved by changing the date of Australia Day or giving it a new name
- We can  allow others the freedom to express what it means to them.
...............

What are your thoughts? Given that this can be a tricky issue, lets be respectful =)
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 06:23:51 pm by EEEEEEP »

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Re: Should the date of Australia day (and/or name) be changed?
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2017, 06:37:21 pm »
+1
If they want to change it, which might be a good idea simply to silence people, a good date would be the 27th of May, which was the day that Aborigines officially became part of the Constitution.
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Re: Should the date of Australia day (and/or name) be changed?
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2017, 06:44:25 pm »
+5
I hope this will be an interesting discussion. Thanks for starting it, EEEEEEP. Just noting that those first arguments you've mentioned are not confined to Indigenous Australians.

If they want to change it, which might be a good idea simply to silence people, a good date would be the 27th of May, which was the day that Aborigines officially became part of the Constitution.

And I'm not sure that changing the date "simply to silence people" is a good idea. I'd personally find that pretty disrespectful, and it merely avoids the above-raised concerns rather than addressing them.

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Re: Should the date of Australia day (and/or name) be changed?
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2017, 07:05:41 pm »
0
I hope this will be an interesting discussion. Thanks for starting it, EEEEEEP. Just noting that those first arguments you've mentioned are not confined to Indigenous Australians.

And I'm not sure that changing the date "simply to silence people" is a good idea. I'd personally find that pretty disrespectful, and it merely avoids the above-raised concerns rather than addressing them.

Personally, I don't particularly mind whether it gets changed or not. To most people it means nothing except another day off, but then to most Aborigines it's a day of mourning. So maybe instead of changing it, we recognise Reconciliation Day on the 27th of May, to instead celebrate our biggest step towards atoning for our former crimes against the natives

What I meant is not to silence the people that actually have a reason to protest the date, but the SJWs out there that would complain for the Aborigines, instead of them, who won't be silenced until people actually respect their complaints. Anyone that has a good argument for the date change doesn't deserved to be silenced.
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Re: Should the date of Australia day (and/or name) be changed?
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2017, 07:50:41 pm »
0
Personally, I don't particularly mind whether it gets changed or not. To most people it means nothing except another day off, but then to most Aborigines it's a day of mourning. So maybe instead of changing it, we recognise Reconciliation Day on the 27th of May, to instead celebrate our biggest step towards atoning for our former crimes against the natives

What I meant is not to silence the people that actually have a reason to protest the date, but the SJWs out there that would complain for the Aborigines, instead of them, who won't be silenced until people actually respect their complaints. Anyone that has a good argument for the date change doesn't deserved to be silenced.

are there bad arguments for the date to be changed? ??? they all seem to be grounded in pretty serious history to me, idk. the best thing would probably be to do something easy like shift the date to a flexible one (ie. last friday in january) or pick a summer date with some significance, though it's hard to find one that really applies to australia since federation day's already a day off tbh. also i don't think not being indigenous makes you automatically a sjw for being concerned about a holiday that literally marks the day european settlers landed in australia and took possession of the land? the same way gender equality should probably matter to you regardless of your own gender. and idk about the idea that people should be silenced, regardless of their opinion.

your idea of may 27th isn't bad – except that it's practically in winter, so half the people currently on the fence about this would be up in arms at the idea of losing their summer barbecue holiday. because this is what matter to people apparently :/ if this ever gets off the ground, i honestly can't imagine a change being supported by enough people if it doesn't keep a january/summer date.
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Re: Should the date of Australia day (and/or name) be changed?
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2017, 08:02:00 pm »
+1
personally i would like to see it changed. it's disrespectful to the Indigenous and very hurtful towards them

if we were to change the date, I was thinking of changing it to the day we become a republic? (which is a whole other debate) sort of like an Independence Day
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Re: Should the date of Australia day (and/or name) be changed?
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2017, 08:03:42 pm »
+3
Coming out of my hibernation just to post in this thread! xD

Anyhow, its an interesting question, but I'm strongly opposed to any fiddling with Australia Day, no ifs ands or buts. After all, what's the main reason we celebrate the holiday? To commemerate the arrival of the First Fleet. Like it or not, that happened; it was arguably one of the most culturally significant events in Australian history, the precursor to the founding of our great country. That's not to discredit the richness of pre-colonial Aboriginal history of course, but I'm not sure any other event was quite as formative. Of course, I can understand the argument for change and sympathise with those whom the current regime upsets. However, I think people get caught up in symbolic imagery rather than practical solutions, especially in a case like this. Think back to the Apology in 2008 which didn't do much of anything.

Those hardliners who claim it's emblematic of 'Invasion Day' are difficult to take seriously IMO. Often, these people are happy to embrace all the wonders of Western society, but will simultaneously use that same platform to deride the very society which afforded them such wealth and opportunity. If they really believed this is stolen land, then they should get on a plane and be true to their word: leave. I believe these sort of people are very similar to a common perception of anti-capitalists - young people who use IPhones to preach against the Free Market from the comfort of Starbucks.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 08:10:29 pm by Son of Thatcher »
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Re: Should the date of Australia day (and/or name) be changed?
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2017, 08:45:17 pm »
+2
We should just abolish it entirely. Any form of patriotism is toxic.

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Re: Should the date of Australia day (and/or name) be changed?
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2017, 08:54:36 pm »
+5
We should just abolish it entirely. Any form of patriotism is toxic.
I couldn't disagree more. I believe that a country is a legal manifestation of the will of a group of individuals. Therefore, a country stands for certain principles and values, populated by citizens bound by a common history, language and morality. Given this, it's absolutely reasonable to cherish our country and be patriotic.

Of course, anything in excess is a problem. Too much patriotism? Then you get nativism and nationalism. But I hardly think Australia Day encourages anything of the sort.
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Re: Should the date of Australia day (and/or name) be changed?
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2017, 10:49:31 pm »
+1
I'm not convinced either way personally, still a big question mark.

I do wonder though whether changing the date is the wrong tack. There's no better day than Australia Day to reflect on the atrocities that were committed against indigenous people. Part of me wonders whether we'd gain more by changing the tone of the day, as a celebration of our victories as a country but also a recognition of our past failures.
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Re: Should the date of Australia day (and/or name) be changed?
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2017, 10:54:54 pm »
+2
>>potential SJW incoming lol<<

TBH I don't really understand the "changing the date would just be symbolic and avoiding the actual problem" argument? I would argue that symbolism is extremely important. If you're not willing to even offer a symbolic apology, then really, what are you willing to offer? If you're not even willing to take the effort to change an arbitrary date, then how would you be willing to challenge the status quo, to invest the immense amount of resources required to tackle the entrenched issues that are disadvantaging Indigenous Australians? Taking a symbolic step doesn't mean that actual action is precluded - in fact I would argue that it helps acknowledge the issue, raise more awareness and accelerate the process. Reconciliation and Close the Gap isn't exactly hurrying along right now. Australia Day is just one of the many issues that we need to address and a start of a difficult journey to reconciliation.

After all, what's the main reason we celebrate the holiday? To commemerate the arrival of the First Fleet. Like it or not, that happened; it was arguably one of the most culturally significant events in Australian history, the precursor to the founding of our great country.

Do we actually though? I doubt many people actually commemorate the arrival of the First Fleet on Australia Day. For most it is a day to celebrate our country and nation as it is now... or just an excuse to get drunk. I have a feeling that for most people it's the latter.
And that's the problem - the 'meaning' of the date is not significant enough to have much public value, but significant enough to be hurtful for Indigenous Australians. I suspect for many defending the date it's just a matter of keeping the status quo and an unwillingness to "let PC get its way".

Those hardliners who claim it's emblematic of 'Invasion Day' are difficult to take seriously IMO. Often, these people are happy to embrace all the wonders of Western society, but will simultaneously use that same platform to deride the very society which afforded them such wealth and opportunity. If they really believed this is stolen land, then they should get on a plane and be true to their word: leave. I believe these sort of people are very similar to a common perception of anti-capitalists - young people who use IPhones to preach against the Free Market from the comfort of Starbucks.

I'm not sure why criticising British settlers' horrendous treatment of Indigenous Australians is equated to an attack on Western society...? I'm not denying the good of Western society. It's just that our "lucky country" is built upon the bloodshed and suffering of many forgotten peoples, and I think it's only right to acknowledge and respect the feelings of those who are hurt by this, especially as we (Western society) self-proclaim to be all these lofty values of "just, tolerant, respectful, equal" etc.
Besides, the First Fleet is equivalent to the establishment of a British colony. If it was to truly be a 'national day', wouldn't it make more sense to have a date that has some significance for our current national identity as an independent Australia?
For example, 9 May for the opening of the Commonwealth Parliament, or 12 March for the naming of Canberra because Canberra needs more love :'(

I believe that a country is a legal manifestation of the will of a group of individuals. Therefore, a country stands for certain principles and values, populated by citizens bound by a common history, language and morality. Given this, it's absolutely reasonable to cherish our country and be patriotic.

Which is why we need a date without all this moral baggage, so that all citizens can feel actually included and valued ;)
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 11:33:57 pm by kani »
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Re: Should the date of Australia day (and/or name) be changed?
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2017, 10:59:07 pm »
+5
Coming out of my hibernation just to post in this thread! xD

Anyhow, its an interesting question, but I'm strongly opposed to any fiddling with Australia Day, no ifs ands or buts. After all, what's the main reason we celebrate the holiday? To commemerate the arrival of the First Fleet. Like it or not, that happened; it was arguably one of the most culturally significant events in Australian history, the precursor to the founding of our great country. That's not to discredit the richness of pre-colonial Aboriginal history of course, but I'm not sure any other event was quite as formative. Of course, I can understand the argument for change and sympathise with those whom the current regime upsets. However, I think people get caught up in symbolic imagery rather than practical solutions, especially in a case like this. Think back to the Apology in 2008 which didn't do much of anything.

Those hardliners who claim it's emblematic of 'Invasion Day' are difficult to take seriously IMO. Often, these people are happy to embrace all the wonders of Western society, but will simultaneously use that same platform to deride the very society which afforded them such wealth and opportunity. If they really believed this is stolen land, then they should get on a plane and be true to their word: leave. I believe these sort of people are very similar to a common perception of anti-capitalists - young people who use IPhones to preach against the Free Market from the comfort of Starbucks.

I disagree with you so fundamentally but I'm so happy to have your perspective around 😂. Stay out of the woodwork!
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Re: Should the date of Australia day (and/or name) be changed?
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2017, 11:36:57 pm »
+1
TBH I don't really understand the "changing the date would just be symbolic and avoiding the actual problem" argument? I would argue that symbolism is extremely important. If you're not willing to even offer a symbolic apology, then really, what are you willing to offer? If you're not even willing to take the effort to change an arbitrary date, then how would you be willing to challenge the status quo, to invest the immense amount of resources required to tackle the entrenched issues that are disadvantaging Indigenous Australians? Taking a symbolic step doesn't mean that actual action is precluded - in fact I would argue that it helps acknowledge the issue, raise more awareness and accelerate the process. Reconciliation and Close the Gap isn't exactly hurrying along right now. Australia Day is just one of the many issues that we need to address and a start of a difficult journey to reconciliation.
Why? Because all too often when the argument for symbolic change is advanced, the very same reasoning you just illustrated is used. "Oh, it's a useful first step". The problem is, public policy operates on the basis of a cost/benefit relationship, for better or worse. Therefore, actions which are beneficial to a government's image are enacted, funded and publicised first and in many cases, to the exclusion of future policy. Not only does this put style over substance, but it means that once a government has been seen to 'tackle' an important issue, they often see no need to do anything further, thinking that in the minds of voters, the issue has been dealt with even though nothing much has been done. I doubt anyone could name one piece of substantive Indigenous policy passed by the Labor government after the Apology.

If you're not even willing to take the effort to change an arbitrary date, then how would you be willing to challenge the status quo, to invest the immense amount of resources required to tackle the entrenched issues that are disadvantaging Indigenous Australians?
If anything the opposite should happen; substantive change should occur first, ending with a final symbolic gesture as a consummation of all the progress made.

Do we actually though? I doubt many people actually commemorate the arrival of the First Fleet on Australia Day. For most it is a day to celebrate our country and nation as it is now... or just an excuse to get drunk. I have a feeling that for most people it's the latter.
And that's the problem - the 'meaning' of the date is not significant enough to have much public value, but significant enough to be hurtful for Indigenous Australians. I suspect for many defending the date it's just a matter of keeping the status quo and an unwillingness to "let PC get its way".
True. In practical terms, I very much doubt the First Fleet and the nation's colonial development necessarily feature as important on the day. However, that doesn't change the fact that the intention is to commerate the arrival, hence the date. I think you give people too little credit. Of course, there's partying, drunken or otherwise. But what I normally see, past all the celebration and enjoyment, are people proud to call themselves Australian. People who, despite outward appearance, do indeed value the principles that the nation of Australia was founded upon. Interspersed between the celebration, I normally see people despondent about the coutnry's direction. I also see strong opposition to changing the date which, together with my previous point, would seem to indicate that people are more invested in the date than you realise.

I'm not sure why criticising British settlers' horrendous treatment of Indigenous Australians is equated to an attack on Western society...? I'm not denying the good of Western society. It's just that our "lucky country" is built upon the bloodshed and suffering of many forgotten peoples, and I think it's only right to acknowledge and respect the feelings of those who are hurt by this, especially as we (Western society) self-proclaim to be all these lofty values of "just, tolerant, respectful, equal" etc.
Besides, the First Fleet is equivalent to the establishment of a British colony. If it was to truly be a 'national day', wouldn't it make more sense to have a date that has some significance for our current national identity as an independent Australia?
For example, 9 May for the opening of the Commonwealth Parliament, or 12 March for the naming of Canberra because Canberra needs more love :'(
You misunderstand. It's one thing to criticise and point out where legitimate mistakes were made, the horrific treatment of Aboriginal people on the frontier, for example. It's quite another to question the legitimacy and authority of the modern Australian state using the very political and civil freedoms it bestows. Perhaps this is a by-product of my time studying law but make no mistake, saying that this country is 'stolen land' is far more loaded than simple rhetoric. It implies a certain illegality under international law which I should point out, has never been substantiated in a court of law on any level. Of course, we should acknowledge wrongs, but an attack on the sovereignty of the Australian state is far more than that. This is without even getting into some very moral grey areas by disputing the veracity of some of the more severe claims of Aboriginal suppression, the work presented by Windschuttle, for instance.

Besides, the First Fleet is equivalent to the establishment of a British colony. If it was to truly be a 'national day', wouldn't it make more sense to have a date that has some significance for our current national identity as an independent Australia?
The reason why that day is appropriate is because as I said, it heralded the establishment of the Australian state. That state, still in existence today, stands for certain principles. Constituinalism, free speech, free enterprise and so many other contemporary values of relevance today. While there's much to celebrate about Indigenous history, any of that history forging a connection with contemporary Australia is tenuous at best.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 11:42:21 pm by Son of Thatcher »
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kani

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Re: Should the date of Australia day (and/or name) be changed?
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2017, 09:43:14 am »
+1
Why? Because all too often when the argument for symbolic change is advanced, the very same reasoning you just illustrated is used. "Oh, it's a useful first step". The problem is, public policy operates on the basis of a cost/benefit relationship, for better or worse. Therefore, actions which are beneficial to a government's image are enacted, funded and publicised first and in many cases, to the exclusion of future policy. Not only does this put style over substance, but it means that once a government has been seen to 'tackle' an important issue, they often see no need to do anything further, thinking that in the minds of voters, the issue has been dealt with even though nothing much has been done. I doubt anyone could name one piece of substantive Indigenous policy passed by the Labor government after the Apology.
If anything the opposite should happen; substantive change should occur first, ending with a final symbolic gesture as a consummation of all the progress made.

I agree that is what would happen in an ideal world - however "substantial change" to the current status quo is easier said than done, especially considering the fact that the vast changes needed to Close the Gap is unlikely to be effected in single terms. The fact that even symbolic changes are meeting such resistance is a reflection of the wide-scale entrenched disregard for Indigenous Australian issues. How do we expect a government and a people, who aren't willing to change a mere date, to prioritise and tackle the massive burden of Indigenous issues?
Yes, the Rudd government probably did not effect many substantive Indigenous policies - but in contrast the Howard administration, who refused to apologise, effected some policies and decisions that seemed actively hostile to Indigenous Australians: tightening Native Title laws, voting against the UNDRIP, and abolishing the ATSIC amongst others. It just goes to show that in many cases, symbolic gestures represent values and attitudes on a larger scale, which is why Australia Day and constitutional recognition are matters of such significance in this debate.
TBH, as to precluding substantive action: really, nothing much is being done right now anyway, whichever way the Australia Day debate goes. Might as well get this issue sorted.

But what I normally see, past all the celebration and enjoyment, are people proud to call themselves Australian. People who, despite outward appearance, do indeed value the principles that the nation of Australia was founded upon.
The reason why that day is appropriate is because as I said, it heralded the establishment of the Australian state. That state, still in existence today, stands for certain principles. Constitutionalism, free speech, free enterprise and so many other contemporary values of relevance today. While there's much to celebrate about Indigenous history, any of that history forging a connection with contemporary Australia is tenuous at best.

Australia was founded upon the very much realist considerations of the British Empire to preclude French expansion, to replace the lost territory of the USA, to facilitate trade and to pretty much dispose of convicts. I don't believe the settlers were considering many moral principles when they settled Australia and, if they did, the courtesy was not extended to Indigenous Australians nor the British convicts, many of whom were mercilessly abused by those in power. Political freedom and constitutionalism was not really a thing either - early colonial Australia was practically an autocracy under the Governor until the Legislative Council was established, and even then only the interests of some groups were considered.
Morals change over time and I don't believe the values and principles the First Fleet represented is suitable for contemporary Australia, the least of which is our egalitarianism. Today, Australia's national identity is decidedly independent from Britain - hence why the original third and fourth verses of our national anthem was removed - and the date of our national day should aim to reflect that.

It's quite another to question the legitimacy and authority of the modern Australian state using the very political and civil freedoms it bestows. Perhaps this is a by-product of my time studying law but make no mistake, saying that this country is 'stolen land' is far more loaded than simple rhetoric. It implies a certain illegality under international law which I should point out, has never been substantiated in a court of law on any level. Of course, we should acknowledge wrongs, but an attack on the sovereignty of the Australian state is far more than that.

But in the technical sense, Australia wasn't settled legally. The "settlement" of Australia was based on the legal fiction of terra nullius denying the Indigenous Australians were even human, that was rejected by the High Court of Australia in Mabo v Qld (No.2). Even though now the ownership is just "native title" and restricted for a number of pragmatic reasons, it's pretty much implied that Australia is stolen land. It's impossible to restore the land to exclusive Indigenous control now, but the least we can do is acknowledge their traditional ownership and respect their wishes.
Even from a non-legal perspective, the coercion, deception or outright annihilation that was used to dispossess Indigenous Australians of their traditional lands is absolutely egregious and goes against all the moral principles that we claim to stand by. Either way, I don't believe anyone (other than the rarely found extremist) is demanding the dismantling of the Australian state or that all non-Indigenous Australians "go back to where they came from"; mostly it's just the acknowledgement and remediation of past wrongs and current injustices.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 09:51:47 am by kani »
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Re: Should the date of Australia day (and/or name) be changed?
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2017, 10:10:02 am »
+3
I would like to see Australia Day moved to 19/01. The advantages I see of this date is that it serves as a reminder of the year of federation,  and being exactly a week before the 26th weather suitable for Aus celebrations seems likely. 

While I imagine there may be some concerns about the "toxicity" of federation I suspect that if the day was shifted to refocus on Indigenous Peoples that this would precipitate backlash against these communities, and may inadvertently promote further division. 
Note: I don't think that it is right for there to be backlash,  but I believe it would happen nonetheless.  Some people already see the move to change the day as PC and "going to far". I think it would be easier to get more physical policy changes through if "the middle ground" is met.

I also think that not changing the day and continuing what many see as a celebration of invasion doesn't make much sense.  As it currently stands Australia day causes division rather promoting coming together as a community,  and I can't think of any good reasons for that to continue