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November 03, 2025, 03:09:43 am

Author Topic: Criticisms of the VCE  (Read 50045 times)  Share 

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kyzoo

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Re: Criticisms of the VCE
« Reply #120 on: February 03, 2010, 04:54:35 pm »
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Hardwork = results. It's like a law of nature.

Disagree. I've said this in other posts, but I'll say it again - effort is merely raw material, although more raw material will result in more product (higher marks), the relationship is not neccesarily linear, as you should know from doing Chem 3/4. Furthermore how you process the raw material (i.e. study method) - not just how much raw material you use - and how efficient your processing is, is significant.

I was guilty of falling into this "hard work = results" trap last year when I was dismayed at my English exam results. I was thinking, "I worked so hard and this is all I get?" It took me several days to discover the fallacy in this line of thinking, then I realised how awfully inefficient and ineffective my method of doing English was.

---

xD I guess I interrupted the flow of debate regarding this LOTE thing.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 05:01:47 pm by kyzoo »
2009
~ Methods (Non-CAS) [48 --> 49.4]

2010
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2010 ATAR: 99.90
Aggregate 206.8

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ninwa

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Re: Criticisms of the VCE
« Reply #121 on: February 03, 2010, 05:06:50 pm »
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Aiyah kyzoo why bring it up again stop disturbing the thread flow!!!!
(just kidding, I'm merely leaving that issue aside unless ILMM decides to address the points brought up previously)

Hah, yeah it's quite hard to convey it here. Yeah, it can be said for those who are doing Spesh, but I'm talking about being racist (in its original form). And yeah, ninwa, I can see where you're going with the asian 5 thing. I agree, but that isn't being racist per-se as there is a great proportion of other students, from different ethnicities, who also completed that subject. In certain LOTEs however, this idea of cultural influence on scaling is greatly accentuated. Well, atleast I think so.

I do see your point, but I'm not sure there's any way of fixing it... since Chinese students will always tend to take Chinese, Arabic students Arabic, etc. I guess you could even argue that separating subjects into SL and FL is racist, in a way :P
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jejak

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Re: Criticisms of the VCE
« Reply #122 on: February 03, 2010, 07:26:33 pm »
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I personally have a problem with how some of the LOTEs scale. Given the fact that we know how scaling works (compare X subject cohorts performance in this subject to their performance in other subjects) isn't it a bit racist? For example, I'd assume most people who do Chinese FL are most likely, well, Chinese [...] So scaling is no longer based on how difficult the subject is, but rather how much the certain race emphasises education and doing well at school etc. [...] I personally think LOTE scalings have a tendancy to be racist.

I understand your point that LOTE scaling doesn't seem equitable - but "racism" is the wrong term for this phenomenon. If I've read your post correctly, I think you're conflating slightly the fact that a language scales well with the issue of largely "mother tongue cohorts" (most of the Chinese cohort are ethnically Chinese; possibly harder for white guys to succeed.) There are inequalities created by both phenomena, but they are largely separate, and IMHO, neither are explicitly racist.

So on the scaling first. LOTE scaling itself is not a form of discrimination or bias on the basis of race. As I understand it, it is simply that:

- cohort for language X performs competitively in VCE
- there is a language bonus
- therefore language X scales well.

This is exactly the same process for Latin, which of course has no native speakers:

- cohort for Latin performs competitively in VCE
- there is a language bonus
- therefore Latin scales well.

There is no racial bias here, but there are socio-economic ones. Language X may tend to attract people from a culture X ("mother tongue cohort"), which heavily values education (Chinese, Japanese, Hebrew, Greek...) Indeed, the vast majority of immigrants I know, regardless of country, have an abiding belief in the value of education. But this is simply a statistical adjustment on the basis of the educational performance of the cohort - not a racially-motivated judgement.

Furthering this point, Latin tends to be taught in wealthy private schools only, which again forms a cohort of students whose families value education, and enjoy educational privilege. Again, as above, the scores achieved are manipulated statistically, and there is clearly no judgement made on the basis of race. Only on the basis of cohort performance.

Even if a given language tends to attract, in roughly equal proportions, both foreign and mother tongue speakers (Indonesian), there is of course the slight complicating factor that all language students, regardless of whether they are mother-tongue speakers or not, tend to perform above average in VCE - thus further inviting high scaling. This is where the greater inequality lies, between those of different language backgrounds - the cohort, while strong generally, differs in terms of its prior subject preparation, i.e. language exposure in childhood.

I do hope that none of my reasoning here is spurious, or worse, that it was correct yet bleedingly obvious! I simply thought it would be beneficial to draw a clearer dinstinction between the two LOTE issues. Once this has been achieved, I would really like to discuss the inequalities in the "mother tongue cohort" phenomenon, as I feel it greatly disadvantages people such as myself, who come from monolingual English backgrounds. I might write this separately, just to avoid too lengthy a post.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 07:35:36 pm by jejak »
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brightsky

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Re: Criticisms of the VCE
« Reply #123 on: February 03, 2010, 08:22:16 pm »
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@ jejak, you've raised a very good point. With the attempt at diversity in the VCE system, it means that all schools can't offer all subjects, and hence going to one school can disadvantage a student in respects to another. Another flaw.

If my memory doesn't fail me, I think the issue of VCE LOTEs and the disadvantage that native students have over non-backgrounders has been discussed quite thoroughly in another thread (given that I'm interpreting the meaning of the posts in this thread correctly). There can be only so much divisions we can implement on each LOTE, so it is inevitable that EVERY individual cannot be accomodated for their own background in the language (e.g. people who have had, say 6 months studying in a Chinese country would complain that they are in the same group as one who had 11 months. There is no way any educational system can accomodate on such discrepancies.)

A non-background student in the field on Chinese may be disadvantaged because of the fact that the vast majority of students that do the language are Chinese, and therefore the competition is thus determined, as well as the scaling. However, there are many cases where non-backgrounders do better than people speaking Chinese at home. It all comes down to the amount of exposure the individual has with the subject, and how much he wants to improve, and how much he DOES improve. A non-backgrounder may choose to seek more exposure in the language to improve his Chinese, albeit it would be harder, such as a trip to China or going to Chinese school. It is too generalised to just say that such students are "racially disadvantaged". There is some kind of disadvantage (the exposure part and as you stated, different ethnic beliefs in the field of education), but it comes down to the individual at this point to decide to change and amend these disadvantages.

Hope I make sense. :p
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Re: Criticisms of the VCE
« Reply #124 on: February 03, 2010, 09:57:47 pm »
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I have two things to add:

1. BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BITCH BITCH BLAH BLAH BLAH BITCH BLAH
Get over your ENTER, no one cares. Life doesn't stop at a four digit number.

2. Scaling is completely statistical. No one 'decides' on how much a subject scales, you can't introduce a racist term into a statistical equation. It may appear racist, but that purely depends on the performance of the cohort.
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QuantumJG

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Re: Criticisms of the VCE
« Reply #125 on: February 03, 2010, 10:07:52 pm »
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Well, I have many woes with the VCE.

Biggest problem. Why should English be in the top 4? A person can get 99.95 without taking any Maths and Science. Both these subjects are essential to well rounded education and doing well in the work force. My argument is that if English is compulsory for the top 4, then so should Maths and Science subjects.

VCE English is utterly pointless. It doesn’t teach you spelling or grammar. For instance, a person can get away with misspelling words such as ‘welfare’ and still get a higher mark on a SAC than someone who has perfect spelling. It’s very subjective as well. Arguments that are extremely good for one examiner might be considered worthless by another. All you do is write essays, often using the same ideas and concepts in each essay. Context is also a waste of time – it enables people to be creative. When we think about it, creativity is pretty useful but should that mean English ought to be compulsory for that single reason?

Take the following subjects:

English 50, History Revolutions 50, International Studies 49, Psychology 41, Literature 43, LOTE French 43 to give an ENTER score of 99.95 for person X.

Psychology 50, Maths Methods 49, Accounting 49, Further Maths 49, Chemistry 44, English 43 to give 99.75 for me.

Is this fair? I’m not saying that Person x doesn’t deserve that ENTER score. I’m just asking you, why is it that despite achieving similar raw scores, in fact more raw scores closer to 50, I achieved 99.75 and missed out from being waived HECs fees? What is lacking in me, apart from my English score? I did just as well subject wise. I also think that if the top 4 subjects are added together for each person and 10% of the bottom two subjects added to the aggregate without considering English in the top 4, I’d have the higher aggregate. That is, after considering raw scores only.

I think either English shouldn’t be compulsory, enabling people like myself to achieve their dreams. Or else, if it is compulsory, so should Maths and Science subjects. We shall never know if person X would have scored so highly if forced to take a Maths subject, LOTE and a Science subject as well and have both of them counted as their top 4. This way people like me won’t lose motivation half way through the year, knowing they’re not destined for the fabulous 99.95.

Australia is a multicultural nation – why are they still insisting English be compulsory? If it is to increase literacy skills, trust me – pursuing VCE English will not help this. It only adds to people’s stress levels, acts as a de-motivator and comes down to how thoughtful and creative you are. It’s got nothing to do with grammar and spelling as we would think it to be.

I also propose another strategy. If English is to be compulsory, why put it in the top 4? A person can get five study scores of 50 and miss out on 99.95 because they didn’t get as high in English. His ENTER doesn’t reflect his incredible abilities. I reckon that they should make people exempt from the top 4 requirement if they get 35 and above in English. A study score of 35 is deemed above average in all subjects – why shouldn’t it be the case for English?

I also have a problem with scaling. After taking VCAA’s advice very seriously and taking subjects that I feel comfortable with, I feel as though I’ve missed out on a higher ENTER score by not taking a LOTE or Specialist Maths.

Why should Specialist Maths be scaled up? If someone takes the subject, it should be because they believe they are competent enough to score highly in it. A lot of people do mediocre in Methods, attaining study scores of 30 raw and still aim to do Specialist. It’s likely they won’t perform much better. It’s also obvious that the main motivation here is the scaling. If the subject is taken truly because people feel they can do well, there is no need to scale it up as everyone will do their very best – the people doing the subject will be of almost equal ability. Similar concept with LOTEs.

Overall I am very disappointed with my ENTER score as it does not fully reflect the work I put in for VCE.


This is even better!

Data is from ENTER calc

Student A: Chemistry (37 -> 41.6),  English (39 -> 38), Maths Methods (30 -> 36), Physics (39 -> 42) & Specialist maths (33 -> 42). ENTER 92.65

Student B: Chemistry (37 -> 41.6),  English (30 -> 28), Maths Methods (39 -> 44), Physics (39 -> 42) & Specialist maths (33 -> 42). ENTER 89.70
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ninwa

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Re: Criticisms of the VCE
« Reply #126 on: February 03, 2010, 10:14:20 pm »
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Lol guys don't bother, I'm thinking she's ditched the thread so she doesn't have to answer everyone's arguments...
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m@tty

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Re: Criticisms of the VCE
« Reply #127 on: February 03, 2010, 10:41:53 pm »
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I hate English and I support it's place in the top 4.
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the.watchman

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Re: Criticisms of the VCE
« Reply #128 on: February 03, 2010, 10:42:44 pm »
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I hate English and I support it's place in the top 4.

+1, I can't stand it, but I reckon VCAA's right on this occasion :(
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jejak

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Re: Criticisms of the VCE
« Reply #129 on: February 03, 2010, 11:01:37 pm »
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I am thoroughly bored by the back-and-forth between ILMM and opponents, so I've elected to ignore it.

Quote
Scaling is completely statistical. No one 'decides' on how much a subject scales, you can't introduce a racist term into a statistical equation. It may appear racist, but that purely depends on the performance of the cohort.

I completely agree. I was quite bemused really to see an unfortunate human trait, racism, applied to a blind statistical manipulation, as I've said above. It's like saying bell curves hate fat chicks, or something.

Quite aside from the scaling thing: I do think that the "mother tongue cohort" problem needs addressing. Of course, it does not always follow that heritage speakers will always outclass each and every motivated non-background student, but for languages like Chinese, the system is clearly unfair, in terms of SS outcomes, for everyone. Hopefully the introduction of the "heritage" language stream will address some of these issues.

Tbh though, I am quite pessimistic about the possibility of improving the situation. As I see it, there is no way for VCAA to differentiate on the basis of home linguistic environment -how would it be measured?- and this is the primary predicting factor for success in LOTE. To take the example of Chinese, a Chinese-born student who has been a long-time resident in Australia will usually have to take Chinese SLA. However, all the SLA students I know display huge individual difference in language ability, depending upon factors such as length of time in China/HK/Taiwan, parents' inclination to speak in English, and immersion in the hua qiao community. One SLA student in my class, the weakest, had skills below that of a typical non-background SL student.

For Australian-born Chinese students, home linguistic environment can be even more variable, with some ABC kids speaking no Chinese at all; some speaking dialect; some broken Mandarin; and a goodly number being functionally fluent. All of these students are forced to compete in one cohort, as is the typical white guy. And yet, there is no practical way (AFAIK) to differentiate between any one of these students.

There is also the more obvious issue of some countries being classified as non-Chinese speaking for VCAA purposes, despite one being able, in such a country, to receive a comprehensive Chinese-language education, and live within a Chinese-speaking community. This is certainly the case in Malaysia; I believe it is also possible in Vietnam. Ethnic Chinese students in Singapore receive education in Mandarin from their earliest school days, and many come from Mandarin-speaking, or mixed English/Mandarin-speaking, households.

Not that I'm bitter(...) but a Singaporean student in my Chinese Second Language class far outstripped all of us, and received a 50 in Chinese last year. The next best score? 37. Not only was this greatly disheartening for everyone else in class, but the student in question found the class positively soporific, and seemed to loathe it for being so. Basically, bad for everyone involved.

Quote
Lol guys don't bother, I'm thinking she's ditched the thread so she doesn't have to answer everyone's arguments...
+1.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 11:34:50 pm by jejak »
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Mao

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Re: Criticisms of the VCE
« Reply #130 on: February 03, 2010, 11:35:45 pm »
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I have two things to add:

1. BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BITCH BITCH BLAH BLAH BLAH BITCH BLAH
Get over your ENTER, no one cares. Life doesn't stop at a four digit number.

2. Scaling is completely statistical. No one 'decides' on how much a subject scales, you can't introduce a racist term into a statistical equation. It may appear racist, but that purely depends on the performance of the cohort.

Oh I know it doesn't end at that number. Please realise that it's been less than two months since our ENTER scores came out. Disappointment, happiness, unhappiness etc will be raw. That's why I'm still beating myself up over it. Not that I give a shit for that number. For me, it was only a game of personal satisfaction. Something I haven't achieved for two years in a row.

I do not blame others for my disappointments. I was disappointed about Maths Methods but I blamed only myself for it. I made a mistake and was penalised. However, even now I don't blame VCAA for my ENTER. I ask what it could have been if English hadn't been compulsory, and express my displeasure at their decision for English to be in the top 4.
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jejak

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Re: Criticisms of the VCE
« Reply #131 on: February 03, 2010, 11:39:10 pm »
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And Jejak, you're doing me a favour by ignoring this "boring" argument because we don't need another VCAA worshipper in this thread. We've got too many already.

Quite aside from the whole issue, I do sincerely apologise if my statement that I was "thoroughly bored" came off as mean or belittling. I'll be honest, I was quite bored (simply because it [the discussion] has been going on for pages! I wanted to talk about LOTE issues) but I don't mean to say that the status of English in VCE should be ignored. I guess that's one of the many perils of communicating over the internet: that you can't really control how your post will "sound" to others. Reading them now, my words sounded a bit unnecessarily glib.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 11:41:23 pm by jejak »
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QuantumJG

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Re: Criticisms of the VCE
« Reply #132 on: February 04, 2010, 12:02:03 am »
+1
(Image removed from quote.)

WTF! Lol.

As for English there should be an English for people who want to go on with science, engineering, commerce, etc. Basically where students get to read over academic literature in those fields. We could have oral presentations on what's happening in the world in terms of science, lessons in writing analytical reports, etc.

The thing is that I have never been a fan of novels and as a kid I have read mainly all factual books, so if we could seperate english so arts students are happy and so are science students.

Maybe this is too out there though?
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Re: Criticisms of the VCE
« Reply #133 on: February 04, 2010, 12:12:40 am »
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ILMM, you are very fortunate to have been offered your first preference at a very prestigious and renowned university not only in the country but also the world.  There are some people who did not get their first (few) preference(s) and for some of them, it is impossible for them to receive a second round offer into the course of their dreams.  As I write this, there are 16 700[1] students still hoping for the chance that they will be able to pursue further study.

Yes, I realise that you are bitterly disappointed with reminiscing your experiences with VCE but you have a whole future ahead of you.  What's gone is gone.  You have a degree, you have a path to follow.  You are pursuing actuarial studies -  an extremely lucrative profession.  Once you are an accredited actuary, who bloody cares about HECs?  You'll be able to pay it all off in no time.  This year is the year where you show people what you are capable of achieving.  By attaining such a high ENTER, it is an undisputed fact that you are a very conscientious student, one that is more than capable of doing great things in the future.  Don't let four digits get in the way of life.  Like you said, it's "shit".  Don't let disappointment take hold of your life.  You must look to the bright side of things because as we all know, VCE is another planet all together; you've made it through and you're on planet Earth now.  Things are a lot more logical and make more sense.  :)


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Ilovemathsmeth

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Re: Criticisms of the VCE
« Reply #134 on: February 04, 2010, 12:15:51 am »
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Thanks Gloamglozer for those words of wisdom. I do agree with you, I am so happy to have an opportunity at future study. I had taken it for granted until the day of offers when I suddenly wondered if I'd done the online work okay. Thank god I had.

Hahaha about the planet analogy :)
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