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Author Topic: Criticisms of the VCE  (Read 50129 times)  Share 

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kendraaaaa

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Re: Criticisms of the VCE
« Reply #60 on: February 02, 2010, 10:39:44 pm »
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If we all take a step back and swallow our pride, I think we have to acknowledge that the VCE system is as fair as much as it can be.

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Re: Criticisms of the VCE
« Reply #61 on: February 02, 2010, 10:44:52 pm »
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If we all take a step back and swallow our pride, I think we have to acknowledge that the VCE system is as fair as much as it can be.

Having been at uni for a year, I think you'll find there's probably more to complain about assessments at university compared to VCE, if you wanted to complain and find holes about it. VCE is a pretty good system.
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Re: Criticisms of the VCE
« Reply #62 on: February 03, 2010, 12:12:56 am »
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If we all take a step back and swallow our pride, I think we have to acknowledge that the VCE system is as fair as much as it can be.

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Re: Criticisms of the VCE
« Reply #63 on: February 03, 2010, 12:52:13 am »
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If we all take a step back and swallow our pride, I think we have to acknowledge that the VCE system is as fair as much as it can be.

Having been at uni for a year, I think you'll find there's probably more to complain about assessments at university compared to VCE, if you wanted to complain and find holes about it. VCE is a pretty good system.

God yes. If you think English SACs were subjective, wait 'til you see uni assessments =\
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enwiabe

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Re: Criticisms of the VCE
« Reply #64 on: February 03, 2010, 01:43:58 am »
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To those who feel that English has no place in the top 4, I ask you to read my argument. As a maths/science student who loathed VCE English, I saw it as a chore and an encumberance during my VCE studies. I only realised the true benefits perhaps a year later.

When I was in year 12, I remember agonising greatly over English. At the start, I thought "okay, I'll get a really good tutor and it'll all work out and I won't have to do much work because it's too painful". What a spoilt brat I was.

For most of term 1, barring our oral (which I loved doing because I enjoy public speaking), I barely did a lick of work. Every week I'd go to the tutor and she'd be almost embarrassed that I was expecting her to effectively teach me English (not her job, refinement and elucidation is any tutor's job). I had read 180 (out of 300+ pages) of our first book, Lake of the Woods. I didn't do a single bit of practise writing for it outside of class (I think we had 1 or 2 in class essays? I managed to pass them, but only because I wrote what the teacher had been saying in class). The first SAC came around, and I basically got a friend to forward me the practise essays he'd done, and read them as my revision, as well as memorising a few quotes. As you might imagine, my first SAC mark came back "good". (Our marks went: Fail, Satisfactory, Good, Very Good, Excellent). It was a lovely C (according to another teacher who didn't mind depoliticising the marking scheme).

It suddenly occurred to me that if I didn't work out a way of succeeding at this subject, I was going to be severely screwed. It was an absolute pain, but the next semester, I did do 2 or 3 practise essays (and read the whole book!). I know that sounds incredibly spoiled, but it was actually a real accomplishment for me at the time to force myself to do that much work for something I hated so much.

The mark for the next book came back a much improved Very Good (a B+ by our rough standards). This gave me a confidence, and a hope, for the subject that I had never before experienced. For the creative writing SAC, I actually found a way to enjoy it. I would find a way to make my writing for it as zany and quirky as absolutely possible. I believe I authored 5 practise pieces 5-700 words long each. I almost couldn't believe it.

Roll around to studying for the exam... I hated it. I absolutely hated sitting for 3 hours writing non-stop. So I didn't. I did essays in isolation. Over 2 weeks leading up to the exam, I think I wrote 6 or 7 isolation essays in total, and did 2 past papers in timed conditions (one in our mock exams at school). If you'd have told me at the start of the year that I was going to do 15 essays (total incl. exams) for English as my revision leading up to the exam, I'd have said "over my dead body". I'm not going to lie and say that I started to enjoy it. It was a complete pain the whole way through (with perhaps the exception of creative writing), but I got on with it. My writing improved magnificently. I looked back after VCE at my writing in year 11. It was absolutely atrocious. I wrote like a child, in the most cliched, boring language you could imagine.

Through slogging away at the subject, I improved to the point where I feel I can write about whatever I want and not worry about whether or not I will convey my message effectively. Because of VCE English, I write good well.

I am studying at university Aerospace Engineering and Science (Maths, Physics). No writing, yeah? For Engineering, I have had several long reports 15 pages in length, of which perhaps 8 pages were maths/graphs. The other 7 pages were all written. I have had perhaps 6 or 7 long reports in Physics of 1000-2000 words, each. I recently wrote a 40 page research project in Maths which was, I believe, 8000 words long.

Perhaps 1 out of every 3 times I write something for a maths/science assessment, the assessor will comment on how well it is written (the scientific content is not always fantastic, however :P). I put that down solely to VCE English. I hated its guts, but boy did it teach me how to write.

There's also the fundamentally important lesson of learning "life is not fair, deal with it". I am so glad that I had an opportunity to learn it through VCE English. You think in life you will always get a garden of roses to work with? There are challenges and obstacles littered throughout your life. Overcoming these obstacles, and learning coping mechanisms for running into these obstacles and coming off a bit worse for wear is part and parcel with the goals of VCE. You are supposed to be challenged, and learn how to overcome these challenges. You're going to go complain to your course co-ordinator when there's a core unit that you loathe? And believe me, these occur in every course. You will find a unit that you hate, and you will find that it is compulsory.

English is part of your top 4 for a reason. You will use it every day for the rest of your life. If it isn't made a part of your top 4, nobody who hated the subject in their right mind would sacrifice the man hours required to get a high score would do it. They'd all aim for what they could to maximise their ENTER. I'm pretty sure VCAA doesn't want to have to explain to the government why they're turning out tens of thousands of functionally illiterate graduates.

I hated VCE English as much as you, and possibly more. But as much as it was a pain, it also gave me the gift of prose. For me, it was well worth the hardship, and the ENTER cost. I firmly believe that English should remain a compulsory subject in the top 4. It's not perfect, and I believe there can definitely be changes, but not the ones that you are proposing. Such changes would result in scores of graduates who can't read or write, an outcome too horriffic to fathom.

Edit: The wordcount of this post is 1100 words and took me roughly half an hour to write. At the start of VCE English, I struggled to write 500 words in 1 hour, on any topic. Worth it? Definitely.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 01:53:34 am by enwiabe »

periwinkle

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Re: Criticisms of the VCE
« Reply #65 on: February 03, 2010, 02:31:20 am »
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  I still haven't heard any decent arguments for upholding the status quo. The fact that one might need to write X thousand words in a science course only justifies the Unis making a hurdle requirement of English (or, as I said before, a decent writing score in the GAT.) So completing English can be edifying, or (through reading Orwell, learning about rhetoric, etc) make you more worldly? The same case can be made for any VCE subject that isn't completely reliant on rote learning. It's wholly unfair to only have a compulsory humanities subject.

 As for selection for courses and scholarships, I think ppl are forgetting that that is down to Unis' use of the ENTER (or whatever it's called nowadays) rather than the ENTER itself. I think I prefer the British system, of selection on a case-by-case basis (using the students A-Level results and an interview). Unis make their own decisions about the significance of individual subjects, removing the need for scaling; Maths departments know that the harder maths (which just happens to be called Further Maths) is worth more than the standard option. Then someone like Ahmad would be on the juiciest scholarship available, and who would argue with that? :D
« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 02:33:11 am by periwinkle »

shinny

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Re: Criticisms of the VCE
« Reply #66 on: February 03, 2010, 02:47:35 am »
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  I still haven't heard any decent arguments for upholding the status quo. The fact that one might need to write X thousand words in a science course only justifies the Unis making a hurdle requirement of English (or, as I said before, a decent writing score in the GAT.) So completing English can be edifying, or (through reading Orwell, learning about rhetoric, etc) make you more worldly? The same case can be made for any VCE subject that isn't completely reliant on rote learning. It's wholly unfair to only have a compulsory humanities subject.

 As for selection for courses and scholarships, I think ppl are forgetting that that is down to Unis' use of the ENTER (or whatever it's called nowadays) rather than the ENTER itself. I think I prefer the British system, of selection on a case-by-case basis (using the students A-Level results and an interview). Unis make their own decisions about the significance of individual subjects, removing the need for scaling; Maths departments know that the harder maths (which just happens to be called Further Maths) is worth more than the standard option. Then someone like Ahmad would be on the juiciest scholarship available, and who would argue with that? :D

My previous post wasn't directly targeted at supporting the status quo, but rather, was intended to just show that English isn't the useless subject it's put out to be by most. My ideal system would be similar to the one you mentioned where selection criteria by universities are determined by themselves and can be subject specific. The reason why it's not currently like this is because of the whole thing about high school being too early of a time to lock people into a career, and instead, allowing flexibility so that people can change their minds as to what course they would want to get into. The Melbourne Model was added to also offer this kind of idea (or so they say, but perhaps they just wanted money). Both systems have their merits, but I still think a system involving selection based on subject scores suited for that course would work best. Pre-reqs in VCE already break the whole flexibility idea as is, so it's almost as if the system is being a bit half-assed on its intentions.
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TrueLight

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Re: Criticisms of the VCE
« Reply #67 on: February 03, 2010, 02:52:49 am »
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i think english in the top 4 is a good thing

"You're going to go complain to your course co-ordinator when there's a core unit that you loathe? And believe me, these occur in every course. You will find a unit that you hate, and you will find that it is compulsory." ... hell yeah! sci2010......vomit...

and yep science does require a lot of writing.... and analysing....  
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periwinkle

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Re: Criticisms of the VCE
« Reply #68 on: February 03, 2010, 03:05:41 am »
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i think english in the top 4 is a good thing

"You're going to go complain to your course co-ordinator when there's a core unit that you loathe? And believe me, these occur in every course. You will find a unit that you hate, and you will find that it is compulsory." ... hell yeah! sci2010......vomit...

and yep science does require a lot of writing.... and analysing.... 

But why not let people decide for themselves whether English will help them? You're a libertarian, no? ;)
   ppl can decide to sharpen up on their English skills later on if they feel the need.

   @Shinny: yeah, many ppl in Britain think doing only 3 [though some bright kids do several more] subjects is rather limiting, though it does give you the option of more in-depth study. swings and roundabouts.

enwiabe

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Re: Criticisms of the VCE
« Reply #69 on: February 03, 2010, 03:14:39 am »
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  I still haven't heard any decent arguments for upholding the status quo. The fact that one might need to write X thousand words in a science course only justifies the Unis making a hurdle requirement of English (or, as I said before, a decent writing score in the GAT.) So completing English can be edifying, or (through reading Orwell, learning about rhetoric, etc) make you more worldly? The same case can be made for any VCE subject that isn't completely reliant on rote learning. It's wholly unfair to only have a compulsory humanities subject.

 As for selection for courses and scholarships, I think ppl are forgetting that that is down to Unis' use of the ENTER (or whatever it's called nowadays) rather than the ENTER itself. I think I prefer the British system, of selection on a case-by-case basis (using the students A-Level results and an interview). Unis make their own decisions about the significance of individual subjects, removing the need for scaling; Maths departments know that the harder maths (which just happens to be called Further Maths) is worth more than the standard option. Then someone like Ahmad would be on the juiciest scholarship available, and who would argue with that? :D

Quick history lesson. A long time ago, in a VCE land far far away (then known as HSC), English used to simply be a hurdle. All you needed was 50%, and it didn't count towards your final grade. Then the unis complained that they were getting people in their courses who had absolutely no idea how to write properly. So they changed it. Tada

Cthulhu

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Re: Criticisms of the VCE
« Reply #70 on: February 03, 2010, 03:24:13 am »
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i think english in the top 4 is a good thing

"You're going to go complain to your course co-ordinator when there's a core unit that you loathe? And believe me, these occur in every course. You will find a unit that you hate, and you will find that it is compulsory." ... hell yeah! sci2010......vomit...

and yep science does require a lot of writing.... and analysing.... 

Fuck yeah! Sci2010! I wish I could avoid that :(

enwiabe

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Re: Criticisms of the VCE
« Reply #71 on: February 03, 2010, 03:26:20 am »
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i think english in the top 4 is a good thing

"You're going to go complain to your course co-ordinator when there's a core unit that you loathe? And believe me, these occur in every course. You will find a unit that you hate, and you will find that it is compulsory." ... hell yeah! sci2010......vomit...

and yep science does require a lot of writing.... and analysing.... 

Fuck yeah! Sci2010! I wish I could avoid that :(

If you do Engineering/Science, you can :D

periwinkle

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Re: Criticisms of the VCE
« Reply #72 on: February 03, 2010, 03:43:02 am »
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  I still haven't heard any decent arguments for upholding the status quo. The fact that one might need to write X thousand words in a science course only justifies the Unis making a hurdle requirement of English (or, as I said before, a decent writing score in the GAT.) So completing English can be edifying, or (through reading Orwell, learning about rhetoric, etc) make you more worldly? The same case can be made for any VCE subject that isn't completely reliant on rote learning. It's wholly unfair to only have a compulsory humanities subject.

 As for selection for courses and scholarships, I think ppl are forgetting that that is down to Unis' use of the ENTER (or whatever it's called nowadays) rather than the ENTER itself. I think I prefer the British system, of selection on a case-by-case basis (using the students A-Level results and an interview). Unis make their own decisions about the significance of individual subjects, removing the need for scaling; Maths departments know that the harder maths (which just happens to be called Further Maths) is worth more than the standard option. Then someone like Ahmad would be on the juiciest scholarship available, and who would argue with that? :D

Quick history lesson. A long time ago, in a VCE land far far away (then known as HSC), English used to simply be a hurdle. All you needed was 50%, and it didn't count towards your final grade. Then the unis complained that they were getting people in their courses who had absolutely no idea how to write properly. So they changed it. Tada


 Well, that particular hurdle obviously needed revising; it doesn't justify the need to force those who could already write, or who just to be able to write, to do a whole extra subject. I like the idea [proposed by Brendan] of having an 'English Lite' option.
  Don't get me wrong, I'd love a highly literate population, but, as with politics, I think it's bad practice to conflate one's personal preferences with one's policy perspectives.

TrueLight

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Re: Criticisms of the VCE
« Reply #73 on: February 03, 2010, 04:33:37 am »
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hmmm if english wasn't in the top 4 wouldn't that it be the same thing... (having difficulty explaining this... lol) like... the aggragate would rise or something... lol confusing myself..

also correct me if im wrong... doesn't like nearly every country require they do that language ... and i think most foreign countries have english (as compulsory?)..... i mean like lets say france, doesn't french students living in france have to do french? + (english possibly?)

hmm i still think that english is a good idea.. whether it be lite or wateva .... and its good when you start from a younger age... cause like in uni they do have english helpers in the library ... but seriously... whose gonna use them (well..some ppl do but still eh ppl get lazy)...

anyway ...its not like i did excellent at english ... i got 32 .... but wateva im in third yr now so eh
« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 04:47:54 am by TrueLight »
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periwinkle

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Re: Criticisms of the VCE
« Reply #74 on: February 03, 2010, 04:42:32 am »
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hmmm if english wasn't in the top 4 wouldn't that it be the same thing... (having difficulty explaining this... lol) like... the aggragate would rise or something... lol confusing myself..

also correct me if im wrong... doesn't like nearly every country require they do that language ... and i think most foreign countries have english (as compulsory?)

hmm i still think that english is a good idea.. whether it be lite or wateva .... and its good when you start from a younger age... cause like in uni they do have english helpers in the library ... but seriously... whose gonna use them (well..some ppl do but still eh ppl get lazy)...

anyway ...its not like i did excellent at english ... i got 32 .... but wateva im in third yr now so eh

    It's compulsory in the [different guises of the] Baccalaureate, but alongside several other subjects