Private Schools

[Spreadbury]

Also consider the impact of "environment" - call it osmosis if you will, but having these sorts of things around you encourage you to get become a part of it, and to get motivated, and so on.

might just be me, but I find environment to be utterly useless motivation, and a poor excuse not to be motivated. probably shouldn't mention this for the sake of public schools not sounding woeful but that AC at my school is broken, so my history class is always refridgerated, but that makes no difference to my learning. It's the subject matter that counts.

public school's are the bare-bones of schooling - they give you what you need

Agreed. In average public schools you just don't get a feel for how far you can go, which affects the middle range students a lot imo.

I disagree. most people have some goal in life, and that should dictate how far they feel they can go, not having to be told by a school. also that's quite a defeatist attitude, it's not like you're disadvantaged going to a public school in some subjects (there are others where there are definite benefits of a private school) and you're automatically not going to aim high

[EvangelionZeta]

Also consider the impact of "environment" - call it osmosis if you will, but having these sorts of things around you encourage you to get become a part of it, and to get motivated, and so on.

might just be me, but I find environment to be utterly useless motivation, and a poor excuse not to be motivated. probably shouldn't mention this for the sake of public schools not sounding woeful but that AC at my school is broken, so my history class is always refridgerated, but that makes no difference to my learning. It's the subject matter that counts.

public school's are the bare-bones of schooling - they give you what you need

Agreed. In average public schools you just don't get a feel for how far you can go, which affects the middle range students a lot imo.

I disagree. most people have some goal in life, and that should dictate how far they feel they can go, not having to be told by a school. also that's quite a defeatist attitude, it's not like you're disadvantaged going to a public school in some subjects (there are others where there are definite benefits of a private school) and you're automatically not going to aim high

I think you're a) Thinking too much about how you're affected by your school, b) Not thinking hard enough about how the populace at large is going to relate to their schooling life and c) Thinking too one-dimensionally.  Humans are complex creatures, and every little thing counts.

[HERculina]

I'm not talking about playing football every weekend or helping out at a nursing home. A friend got a work placement with a surgery team (don't know the details) because her friend's mother worked there. They're both at an elite private girls school. That's the sort of advantage I refer to. It's not fair or equitable, but you can't deny it exists.

But I got a work placement with the royal melb hospital surgical team. AND I go to a normal all girls catholic school and when I went everyone assumed that I knew someone who worked there, but I didn't. In contrast, my sister who goes to macrob, which you would assume would make her quite exposed to lots of benefits, got rejected...Oh wait, they called her back 2 months later begging her to come work with the head neurosurgeon.
But the point is that you don't need to go to an "elite private school" for these opportunities. You need to seek out for them by yourself or I guess, an over-exaggerated resume will do.

[EvangelionZeta]

I'm not talking about playing football every weekend or helping out at a nursing home. A friend got a work placement with a surgery team (don't know the details) because her friend's mother worked there. They're both at an elite private girls school. That's the sort of advantage I refer to. It's not fair or equitable, but you can't deny it exists.

But I got a work placement with the royal melb hospital surgical team. AND I go to a normal all girls catholic school and when I went everyone assumed that I knew someone who worked there, but I didn't. In contrast, my sister who goes to macrob, which you would assume would make her quite exposed to lots of benefits, got rejected...Oh wait, they called her back 2 months later begging her to come work with the head neurosurgeon.
But the point is that you don't need to go to an "elite private school" for these opportunities. You need to seek out for them by yourself or I guess, an over-exaggerated resume will do.

Nobody's saying that "elite private schools" are a necessity for these opportunities - they just make them a hell of a lot easier.

[lynt.br]

I'm not talking about playing football every weekend or helping out at a nursing home. A friend got a work placement with a surgery team (don't know the details) because her friend's mother worked there. They're both at an elite private girls school. That's the sort of advantage I refer to. It's not fair or equitable, but you can't deny it exists.

But the point is that you don't need to go to an "elite private school" for these opportunities. You need to seek out for them by yourself or I guess, an over-exaggerated resume will do.

Of course there are opportunities to be successful for both private and public school students. The issue is that it is generally much harder for public school students to have the same opportunities as private school students. At the least, public school students have to work a lot harder to build the network of connections that a private school student will have. If you do attend a public school, particularly a substantially under funded one, and have managed to secure an attractive work placement, you are probably the exception rather than the rule.

Some very crude hypothetical situations to illustrate:

A loves music and plays the piano. He/she dreams to be a successful musician. He/she goes to an under funded school which does not have a music course and accordingly cannot support students who have an interest in music. None of A's friends in school have much interest in music, either because they have not been able to afford to pursue a hobby in music or for other personal reasons.

B goes to a private school where there is a strong focus on extra curricular activities. This involves a large music program involving orchestras, regular performances and strong support for student musicians. Many students in the school have an interest in music and the school has a reputation for producing successful musicians who go on to have a career in music.

Of course A could work very hard to try and pursue his/her music career. He may even be a break-through success and become a world famous pianist. The point is, however, that the cards are stacked against him/her and A must work doubly hard to have access to the same opportunities that B has.

Another example would be two students who want to do law. One student attends a private school where many students have lawyers and solicitors as parents. Consequently, this student can easily build connections in the legal industry and when it comes to seeking placements, he/she will be in a strong position to get the lucrative positions. Another student who attends a public school may have no friends with lawyers as parents. As a result he/she must work much harder to build the same connections that the other student had simply by being in a different school environment.

This is largely the 'point' of going to an elite private school. They have an environment where almost everyone is going to come from a successful family. As a result it is much easier to make friends with the right people. Public schools by nature simply cannot offer the same opportunities which raises issues of equality and fairness.

[Eriny]

In regard to the non-academic aspects of private school, that makes a lot of sense. I never actually realised that people would pay extra money for crazy amounts of house events, religious education, sport at inconvenient times of the day, and the opportunity to spend even more money on frivolous events. My cynicism aside, I can see why you might want to choose that sort of thing. Aside from being quite holistic, and I'm sure, at times, even enjoyable, it seems like it has a nice aesthetic as well, as though you're on the set of Dead Poet's Society, or something.

Personally, the thought of early-morning rowing sessions, school chapel, showing unrelenting enthusiasm and pride in an abstract institution, as well as 'survival' camps doesn't appeal to me in the slightest, and I believe these things are quite unrelated in the formation of an identity. However, I totally respect that others probable have a different outlook than me.

It's funny you would phrase it that way, because in all honesty the stuff that you're condemning is the stuff which I think will be the highlight of my schooling life, and I'm fairly certain that if it weren't for what my school offered me for six years, I wouldn't feel as complete as a person.  Others probably have a different outlook indeed. 

Agree to disagree? :p

Gladly As I said, I do understand the appeal. I just don't think it's for me, I'm a bit too Daria-ish, as it were.

This is largely the 'point' of going to an elite private school. They have an environment where almost everyone is going to come from a successful family. As a result it is much easier to make friends with the right people. Public schools by nature simply cannot offer the same opportunities which raises issues of equality and fairness.

That's an interesting argument. I think though that there are lots of different ways to build connections, for instance I've built quite a lot at university. I agree that who you know can be very important, even if it is unfair. But I guess, private school or not, to build good connections, you do actually have to impress them on the way, you can't just sit on 'you should hire me because I went to the same school as you' unless your potential employer is an idiot.

Additionally, with your music example, why couldn't student A just have private music lessons and perform in bands or in concerts outside of school? Also, I don't think any school can get away with not having any music programme at all because it's part of the curriculum until year 10. You can get opportunities in places other than school.

[IntoTheNewWorld]

Additionally, with your music example, why couldn't student A just have private music lessons and perform in bands or in concerts outside of school? Also, I don't think any school can get away with not having any music programme at all because it's part of the curriculum until year 10. You can get opportunities in places other than school.

This argument could be extended infinitely...You could say that a student at an incredibly under resourced school has the exact same opportunities as a student in an elite private school because they could technically do everything they wanted outside school, but really...

[EvangelionZeta]

In regard to the non-academic aspects of private school, that makes a lot of sense. I never actually realised that people would pay extra money for crazy amounts of house events, religious education, sport at inconvenient times of the day, and the opportunity to spend even more money on frivolous events. My cynicism aside, I can see why you might want to choose that sort of thing. Aside from being quite holistic, and I'm sure, at times, even enjoyable, it seems like it has a nice aesthetic as well, as though you're on the set of Dead Poet's Society, or something.

Personally, the thought of early-morning rowing sessions, school chapel, showing unrelenting enthusiasm and pride in an abstract institution, as well as 'survival' camps doesn't appeal to me in the slightest, and I believe these things are quite unrelated in the formation of an identity. However, I totally respect that others probable have a different outlook than me.

It's funny you would phrase it that way, because in all honesty the stuff that you're condemning is the stuff which I think will be the highlight of my schooling life, and I'm fairly certain that if it weren't for what my school offered me for six years, I wouldn't feel as complete as a person.  Others probably have a different outlook indeed. 

Agree to disagree? :p

Gladly As I said, I do understand the appeal. I just don't think it's for me, I'm a bit too Daria-ish, as it were.

This is largely the 'point' of going to an elite private school. They have an environment where almost everyone is going to come from a successful family. As a result it is much easier to make friends with the right people. Public schools by nature simply cannot offer the same opportunities which raises issues of equality and fairness.

That's an interesting argument. I think though that there are lots of different ways to build connections, for instance I've built quite a lot at university. I agree that who you know can be very important, even if it is unfair. But I guess, private school or not, to build good connections, you do actually have to impress them on the way, you can't just sit on 'you should hire me because I went to the same school as you' unless your potential employer is an idiot.

Additionally, with your music example, why couldn't student A just have private music lessons and perform in bands or in concerts outside of school? Also, I don't think any school can get away with not having any music programme at all because it's part of the curriculum until year 10. You can get opportunities in places other than school.

To draw a personal example, there are schools which allow students to play concertos as soloists with the school orchestra - this simply isn't possible for most people in "outside of school" bands or concerts.  etc. etc. 

[lynt.br]

That's an interesting argument. I think though that there are lots of different ways to build connections, for instance I've built quite a lot at university. I agree that who you know can be very important, even if it is unfair. But I guess, private school or not, to build good connections, you do actually have to impress them on the way, you can't just sit on 'you should hire me because I went to the same school as you' unless your potential employer is an idiot.

I agree with university being a great way to build connections. Unfortunately that is, of course, contingent on getting into university in the first place, but that's a whole new issue in itself.

I wasn't trying to suggest that going to a private school is a free ticket into a high paying job. It just makes it that much easier to get into contact with the people who will most likely be occupying those high paying jobs in the future. I would say being in an environment where most students come from financially successful families makes it much easier to get your foot in the door when it comes to employment. Yes you still need a good work ethic and desirable character traits to be employed, but already having those connections with the right people is such a huge advantage over someone else who may not have the same list of references because of their educational environment.

Additionally, with your music example, why couldn't student A just have private music lessons and perform in bands or in concerts outside of school? Also, I don't think any school can get away with not having any music programme at all because it's part of the curriculum until year 10. You can get opportunities in places other than school.

I made that example up on the spot so my mistake. Although I still think there's a difference between a school which offers a basic music program because it has to and another school that has huge concerts to the public, or opportunities to play in front of VIPs (IIRC, MacRob got to play for the Queen or something? Obviously this is a tremendous opportunity for someone serious in music and one that probably isn't going to be available to the average school).

Yes, student A could have taken music lessons and done stuff out of school etc. I factored that in when I said:

Of course A could work very hard to try and pursue his/her music career. He may even be a break-through success and become a world famous pianist. The point is, however, that the cards are stacked against him/her and A must work doubly hard to have access to the same opportunities that B has.

.
The point I was trying to make is that, while the opportunity exists for A to be successful, he/she has to work much harder to just close the gap between him/her and student B. In many cases, people like Student A will never get the break they need to be successful, even if they were equally as passionate as Student B, simply because they weren't in the right place at the right time.

I guess to summarise what I was trying to say: I recognise everyone has the potential to achieve well in life. I just think that many students in elite schools receive much more support and opportunities that make it easier to succeed than someone in an under funded school. Of course some of these opportunities will simply be the result of socio-economic status, but surely closing the gap between the elite schools and the poorest schools is one way to make the system more equitable?

[Russ]

If you want a simple example, consider some of the VCE subjects like Renaissance History. When you look at the paper at the end of the year, the high achieving students are going to be overwhelmingly from private schools (go check 2009 if you don't believe me). There are multiple reasons for this, but it all comes down to the fact that private schools have wider resources. They can go on tours to Italy, they have access to books that are ridiculously expensive, they have connections to examiners and to historians.

You don't have to go to a private school to do well. Some people would say that a public school offers different benefits, which aren't available at a private school. But you can't refuse to acknowledge that private schools, for better or worse, do have more opportunities.

[ninwa]

Additionally, with your music example, why couldn't student A just have private music lessons and perform in bands or in concerts outside of school? Also, I don't think any school can get away with not having any music programme at all because it's part of the curriculum until year 10. You can get opportunities in places other than school.

Because it's ridiculously expensive... try hiring an entire orchestra... =\

[Jdog]

90 percent of my friends ( I go to a private school ) work damn hard to tak advantage of the opportunities presented in front of them, They appreciate them and have ethe utmost respect to everyone they surround themselves by. I'm dissapointed that this notion of spoon feeding generalizes private school students as being ungrateful and incapable of understanding the privelged situation they were born into.

[ninwa]

Well said, Jdog. I dislike this generalisation (made mostly by people who've never actually attended one) that private school students are spoon-fed and therefore can't handle university altogether. I'm sick of having my VCE achievements degraded because of this misconception. How would you like it if we said things like "public school students suck at uni because they're all stupid and only got in because of SEAS and underrepresented schools"?

I also don't understand how people can claim that we were "spoon-fed" and then in the same breath claim that private schools don't offer anything extra in comparison to public schools?

[slothpomba]

I don't think we should be focusing on the very high end of students who would of done very well regardless of what school they went to (like some people on here). Nor should we focus on the bottom that do absolutely no work or just don't give a stuff.

For the mid-range students (which comprise most students i guess) the additional resources of private schools would be a boon. I'm betting most would show at least a little improvement.

I like the idea of extra-curricular activities and i think you should educate the entire person, for life too. Not just mindlessly spoon-feeding them so they can pass the exam. Sadly this is where a lot of non wealthy private schools suffer, i know a lot of excellent actors and musicians but my school doesn't really have a well developed program like that for them to flourish so i can definitely see a huge advantage there too.

The disparity just shouldn't be there though. I firmly believe Australia is one of the best countries in the world but man we really need to lift our socks up when it comes to education. Every student should be able to have opportunities like those listed above and i believe it is a pretty decent investment. But hey its the real world what are you going to do

[Fyrefly]

THIS THREAD IS ALMOST AS OLD AS THIS WHOLE DAMN SITE.

WHY WON'T IT DIE?!?!?