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November 11, 2025, 03:00:33 pm

Author Topic: The employment outcomes of Arts graduates  (Read 61735 times)  Share 

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enwiabe

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Re: 40% of Arts grads are in jobs that don’t require tertiary education
« Reply #120 on: November 28, 2008, 10:55:45 pm »
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Lol, but you often use Arts subjects as your examples. A pattern, no? :)

As humans, we are able to impugn motives, collin. As innocent as Brendan wishes to seem, let us think for a second.

Brendan INCESSANTLY repeats these "summary statistics" to the point where it is CLEAR that he has a vested interest. When he's posting these Arts articles at a proportion significantly greater than that of other faculties, it is indicative of a VESTED INTEREST.

Now, what would Brendan's vested interest be? He's not an Arts student! I impugn this interest as a condescending bias that has become a pathetic exercise in trolling.

Eriny

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Collin Li

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His motives aren't important. There's no need to call him out on something which you can't solidly call him out on. It'll just get shut down.

The mature course of action is to recognise that statistics do not lead and instruct your life - instead, as an individual, you have the power to lead and instruct statistics! Realise that the evidence that he is being the messenger of is not necessarily binding to you as an individual, and may even be irrelevant to your passion to do Arts (if this applies to you - do you do Arts because you want a nice job, or because you want to study a passion?).

If he "thinks on the inside" that Arts is a bad degree, so what? We all have our own values and preferences. He hasn't made them public so there's no need to call him out for that.

brendan

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Re: The Labour Market outcomes of Arts graduates
« Reply #123 on: November 28, 2008, 11:13:40 pm »
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Lol, but you often use Arts subjects as your examples.

I did use Arts subjects as an example in an thread about Arts.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2008, 11:37:58 am by Brendan »

bucket

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Re: The Labour Market outcomes of Arts graduates
« Reply #124 on: November 28, 2008, 11:14:52 pm »
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meh, it's just (not eriny) and all the other arts fanatics who see them as an attack, you guys need to lighten up. science degrees dont really lead to anywhere glamorous and high paying, and some people like to criticize them aswell, but i still have them as one of my options.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2008, 11:41:38 pm by bucket »
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Eriny

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Re: The employment outcomes of Arts graduates
« Reply #125 on: November 28, 2008, 11:36:43 pm »
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meh, it's just eriny and all the other arts fanatics who see them as an attack, you guys need to lighten up. science degrees dont really lead to anywhere glamorous and high paying, and some people like to criticize them aswell, but i still have them as one of my options.
Sorry? What makes me a fanatic? When did I see any of this stuff as a personal attack? I enrolled in an Arts degree knowing about these statistics and I'm not insulted by any of this. As coblin said, statistics merely describe the trend - I tried to give an explanation of the trend earlier (which I feel that I have enough knowledge to do) and I will overcome the trend in order to gain meaningful employment as well as a good education in an areas that interests me and where I'm most valuable, not just to myself, but to everyone else. These statistics further don't even apply to me because hopefully, when I get a job, I won't be an 'Arts graduate', I'll be a PhD, and thus, I'll hopefully have qualifications which differ from those described in Brendan's articles.

Collin Li

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Re: The employment outcomes of Arts graduates
« Reply #126 on: November 28, 2008, 11:40:51 pm »
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:) peace love and happiness (if you're not convinced read my hippy posts and quotes)

some crap like "individuals influence statistics, not the other way around."

bucket

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Re: The employment outcomes of Arts graduates
« Reply #127 on: November 28, 2008, 11:41:03 pm »
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meh, it's just eriny and all the other arts fanatics who see them as an attack, you guys need to lighten up. science degrees dont really lead to anywhere glamorous and high paying, and some people like to criticize them aswell, but i still have them as one of my options.
Sorry? What makes me a fanatic? When did I see any of this stuff as a personal attack? I enrolled in an Arts degree knowing about these statistics and I'm not insulted by any of this. As coblin said, statistics merely describe the trend - I tried to give an explanation of the trend earlier (which I feel that I have enough knowledge to do) and I will overcome the trend in order to gain meaningful employment as well as a good education in an areas that interests me and where I'm most valuable, not just to myself, but to everyone else. These statistics further don't even apply to me because hopefully, when I get a job, I won't be an 'Arts graduate', I'll be a PhD, and thus, I'll hopefully have qualifications which differ from those described in Brendan's articles.
ok, i'll fix my post ;)
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excal

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Re: The employment outcomes of Arts graduates
« Reply #128 on: November 29, 2008, 12:30:05 am »
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You can make statistics mean anything you want.

Apparently, even the fact that 60% of Arts graduates being employed after graduation in graduate-level jobs means that Arts students in general are "not likely" to get a graduate level job.

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brendan

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Re: The employment outcomes of Arts graduates
« Reply #129 on: November 29, 2008, 12:53:18 am »
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no-one cares about this information except for you apparently
The length of this thread, including your own response, might suggest otherwise.

Brendan INCESSANTLY repeats these "summary statistics" to the point where it is CLEAR that he has a vested interest. When he's posting these Arts articles at a proportion significantly greater than that of other faculties, it is indicative of a VESTED INTEREST.

Now, what would Brendan's vested interest be? He's not an Arts student! I impugn this interest as a condescending bias that has become a pathetic exercise in trolling.

So my vested interest is not being an Arts student?

So rewriting your post, replacing "vested interest" with "not being an Arts student" yields:

Brendan INCESSANTLY repeats these "summary statistics" to the point where it is CLEAR that he is not an Arts student. When he's posting these Arts articles at a proportion significantly greater than that of other faculties, it is indicative that he is not an Arts student.

I think the post that coblin made earlier is an important one:
these statistics are not 'biased' or 'condescending'. They are mere numbers, and averages compiled from empirical evidence. They are facts. Read my post. They only become "negative" when you attach your own meaning to it. That requires your own value-input, something like "employment is good", before it becomes bad.

It would be contradictory to hold that both:
(1) my posts are "anti-Arts" or are "negative" regarding arts, and
(2) that employment outcomes don't matter.

The articles I posted on the labour market outcomes of Arts graduates can only be interpreted as "negative" or "anti-Arts" by the reader, if employment outcomes actually matter to them (the reader), but that would of course contradict point (2).

« Last Edit: November 29, 2008, 01:23:46 am by Brendan »

RD

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Re: The employment outcomes of Arts graduates
« Reply #130 on: November 29, 2008, 12:59:13 am »
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Gee.. is arts that bad!?

brendan

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Re: The employment outcomes of Arts graduates
« Reply #131 on: November 29, 2008, 01:10:58 am »
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The Struggle for Thought: Arts Degrees and University Micromanagement
by Andrew Norton
http://www.cis.org.au/Policy/winter00/polwin00-9.htm

Andrew Norton is a Research Fellow with The Centre for Independent Studies and Director of the Liberalising Learning programme. He works at the Vice Chancellor’s office at The University of Melbourne. This is taken from a recent Issue Analysis paper entitled Degrees of Difficulty: The Labour Market Problems of Arts and Social Science Graduates.


Arts degrees are touchy subjects as Andrew Norton found upon the release of Degrees of Difficulty, a CIS paper examining the labour market problems of humanities and social science graduates. Yet the criticism has missed the real theory behind the paper.

In Australia, student places are allocated to universities according to a government quota. Fortunately for the universities, though not for the students who annually miss out on places, this quota is set well below actual demand. Getting into university in Australia is like a giant game of musical chairs, in which when the music stops there are always many more children than chairs. If you want a place, you are wise to grab one, even if it is not your first choice. A survey of first-year students showed that 32% of them did not get into their course of first choice, and of this group nearly a quarter received their fourth or fifth choice.

While not all students will get into their preferred course in a completely deregulated system either, this figure of a third missing their first preference, plus those who get into no course at all, suggests that a quota-based system, as opposed to a student choice based system, has trouble matching universities and students.

More mismatch is caused by the way student places are funded. Universities get a subsidy for each student within their quota, and no direct funding from students or other sources. The HECS charge goes to the government, not the universities.

A decade ago there was some relationship between the subsidy and the cost, but this has since broken down. New student places have generally been funded at an average rate, and universities have been able to adjust the proportions of their students they have in the various disciplines. Effectively, universities now get an average subsidy, rather than one weighted according to cost.

My theory in Degrees of Difficulty is that breaking the link between subsidy and cost affects the distribution of student places between courses. As universities have come under severe financial pressure they have had to cut costs, and one way to control expenditure is to concentrate growth in cheap-to-provide courses. In the last decade, growth in annual commencing places in cheap-to-provide courses has been more than 67,000, compared to less than 38,000 in relatively expensive-to-provide courses. Of the 67,000, around 24,000 were in Arts. The growth patterns may well have been different if top-up fees could be charged, making internal course decisions more cost neutral.

A genuine choice?

Some contributors to forums on this issue say that the growth in Arts simply reflects student demand. While nobody forces students to study Arts, I believe that that the distortions in supply are feeding back into student preferences, to the point that we cannot tell to what extent they represent students’ real choices.

Take for example the effect growth in the number of student places in a particular course will have on the scores required for admission. Beyond a certain point, the scores do not reflect the difficulty of the course, but supply and demand. Holding demand constant, an increase in supply will depress the score required, and vice-versa. Therefore, a system like this will, all other things being equal, make Arts easier to get into, relative to the courses growing more slowly.

Prospective students, about 45% of them in one survey, adjust their study preferences according to their likely Year 12 results. For students who are going to do only moderately well, this means that the relatively easy entrance requirements of Arts are an attraction, and so they will rank Arts highly if they want a university education. In this way, the distortions of supply structure the stated preferences of students, creating a spurious appearance of universities being responsive to student demands.

The quality consequences of little competition

Arts faculties do not claim that their degrees are directly vocational, but they do say that they teach employable skills. For example, at the University of New South Wales they say that an Arts degree provides Ôskills of research, analysis, and the ability to write clearly and consistently.’ It would be hard to disagree with the benefits of all those skills.

While these skills can be learned in humanities and social science degrees, they are generally not systematically taught. They tend to be learnt indirectly by observing others, by practice in researching and writing essays, and through feedback on assessed material. WithÊ resourceful students and teachers who have the ability and time to provide guidance, these skills will be learned and enhanced. But an employer would be unwise to assume that the graduate had high level thinking and writing skills. Indeed, a survey by ACNielsen found that employers thought their Arts graduates had below average literacy skills.

A private university like Bond ensures that all graduates have the generic skills employers would expect. All students complete units in communication, information technology, values and organisations. Employers cannot be so assured that a graduate from universities without similar systematic teaching and testing of general skills does in fact possess them.

At the moment, Bond has a huge price disadvantage, but with real competition other universities are likely to develop innovative schemes to improve their graduates’ employability.

The employment consequences

The cumulative effect of government regulation of the universities has, I believe, been to produce a lack of connection between the skills graduates have and the skills needed in the labour market.

Since the mid-1970s Arts graduates have in each decade been experiencing a more difficult transition from study to work, to the point where more than 30% are still looking for full-time work four months after graduating. While their labour market position improves substantially over time, they never come close to matching their peers in some other degrees. People with degrees in what the Australian Bureau of Statistics calls Ôsociety and culture’ have unemployment rates about 50% above those of graduates generally. Wages too remain well below average, probably partly because some graduates are working in jobs for which degrees are not required.

Given that many Arts graduates are people of above average intelligence, who have invested three years or more in studying, this is a waste of talent and ability.

Is a liberal arts degree worthless?

No, of course not. I spent six years studying liberal arts subjects, and found it a worthwhile experience. However, I also believe that those who want to enhance their employability and make themselves eligible for high skill jobs can legitimately expect to do so through a university education. I do not share the intellectual snobbery of some Arts academics who look down on the grubby business of making money.

A deregulated system would probably see a lower proportion of students studying just Arts, though with added growth in double degrees and access to the pool of prospective students excluded from higher education by the quota system, probably not a drop in absolute numbers. Added revenue from fees would ease the chronic financial problems of most Arts faculties.

The tragedy of the Arts faculties is that the principal victims of their stubborn opposition to change is their own students. No wonder so few Australians feel inclined to give money to their old university.


« Last Edit: November 29, 2008, 01:13:35 am by Brendan »

psychlaw

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Re: The employment outcomes of Arts graduates
« Reply #132 on: November 29, 2008, 02:13:05 am »
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Doesn't Andrew Norton have an arts degree?

brendan

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Re: The employment outcomes of Arts graduates
« Reply #133 on: November 29, 2008, 02:15:46 am »
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Doesn't Andrew Norton have an arts degree?

I recall in a conversation with him, that he did a combined LLB/BA degree.

jess3254

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Re: The employment outcomes of Arts graduates
« Reply #134 on: November 29, 2008, 12:25:04 pm »
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Man up and actually declare your vendetta against arts degrees/students instead of passively-aggressively antagonising people with your constant bullshit.

What bullshit? The articles? I am just the messenger.

It says more that people like you choose to make unsubstantiated accusations against the messenger rather than address the message.

Brendan, you can play the innocent self-victimising "WHAT, ME?!"

It's more like people making unsubstantiated accusations. If a person is going to make an accusation then they better stand ready to provide some evidence.



Oh come off it, Brendan. Our assumptions aren’t unsubstantiated.

Our behaviours can determine what our attitudes are, as our attitudes can be used to predict our behaviours.

For example, just say I created a thread that contained a link to an article which stated that the crime rate amongst Sudanese Australians was considerably higher than the rest of the population. That would be fine. Members might rebut some of the points raised in the article, point out flaws in research methodology and share their anecdotes etc.

But, if I were to start creating threads every time I stumbled across an article that contained all sorts of negative statistics or articles about Sudanese Australians (as well as posting different articles, yet with the essentially the same information twice or thrice), it would be easy to deduce that I had a bias/negative attitude towards Sudanese Australians. The thing people ultimately find offensive wouldn’t necessarily be the articles, but my actions of posting the articles repeatedly and being very selective about the ones I choose to post.

Conversely, if I were to create threads every time I found a positive article about Sudanese Australians, you could assume that I felt positively towards Sudanese Australians. If I were to post a mixture of positive and negative articles, you could assume I felt ambivalent towards Sudanese Australians.

Behaviours reflect our attitudes. I may say, “I’m allowed to post what I like, I post lots of things on VN, I’m just the messenger. You just can’t handle the information about Sudanese Australians, it's the reader who thinks they are negative articles”, however I would have to accept that what I posted (repeatedly) reflected upon me, as well as my views. Actions do speak louder than words.

It’s not the articles; it’s your actions of posting these so frequently which I find pathetic.

Disclaimer: I don't actually have a prejudice against sudanese Australians at all, I just used that as an example.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2008, 05:29:43 pm by jessie0 »