The employment outcomes of Arts graduates

[excal]

Man up and actually declare your vendetta against arts degrees/students instead of passively-aggressively antagonising people with your constant bullshit.

What bullshit? The articles? I am just the messenger.

It says more that people like you choose to make unsubstantiated accusations against the messenger rather than address the message.

Brendan, you can play the innocent self-victimising "WHAT, ME?!"

It's more like people making unsubstantiated accusations. If a person is going to make an accusation then they better stand ready to provide some evidence.

Oh come off it, Brendan. Our assumptions aren’t unsubstantiated.

Our behaviours can determine what our attitudes are, as our attitudes can be used to predict our behaviours.

For example, just say I created a thread that contained a link to an article which stated that the crime rate amongst Sudanese Australians was considerably higher than the rest of the population. That would be fine. Members might rebut some of the points raised in the article, point out flaws in research methodology and share their anecdotes etc.

But, if I were to start creating threads every time I stumbled across an article that contained all sorts of negative statistics or articles about Sudanese Australians (as well as posting different articles, yet with the essentially the same information twice or thrice), it would be easy to deduce that I had a bias/negative attitude towards Sudanese Australians. The thing people ultimately find offensive wouldn’t necessarily be the articles, but my actions of posting the articles repeatedly and being very selective about the ones I choose to post.

Conversely, if I were to create threads every time I found a positive article about Sudanese Australians, you could assume that I felt positively towards Sudanese Australians. If I were to post a mixture of positive and negative articles, you could assume I felt ambivalent towards Sudanese Australians.

Behaviours reflect our attitudes. I may say, “I’m allowed to post what I like, I post lots of things on VN, I’m just the messenger. You just can’t handle the information about Sudanese Australians, it's the reader who thinks they are negative articles”, however I would have to accept that what I posted (repeatedly) reflected upon me, as well as my views. Actions do speak louder than words.

It’s not the articles; it’s your actions of posting these so frequently which I find pathetic.

Disclaimer: I don't actually have a prejudice against sudanese Australians at all, I just used that as an example.

And what's the problem with him being anti-Arts?

[Collin Li]

You guys are being blindly anti-Brendan, as BA22 put nicely in the other thread.

Here is the extremely bare executive summary:
* Brendan provides links and articles regarding the employment outcomes of Arts graduates (facts, evidence)
[End of story]


NOT this:

* Brendan provides links and articles regarding the employment outcomes of Arts graduates (facts, evidence)
* Brendan(***) then says that "employment is the only virtue"
* Therefore, the logical conclusion is that Arts is not virtuous.

(***) Brendan does not think this. In your mind it may be a straw-man, or yourself that thinks this.


Here is what I am telling you to do, if you love Arts but feel insecure about Brendan's posts:

1) Achieve higher than the norm. Statistics do not limit the individual's capability, rather it is the converse: the individual's capability limits statistics!

2) Understand that logically, if employment is not the only virtue (we should all agree with this - well actually, it's up to you), then Arts is not necessarily bad. If we only cared about employment we would be wise to take heed to Brendan's articles with much more than a grain of salt, but because there are other factors to consider (fun, passion, etc.), not to mention that your individual employment opportunity function is based on your own interests, then you may actually maximize the combination of your values and preferences by doing Arts. He never said this can't be the case. Note that he never gave any advice on whether you should do Arts or not.

All that Brendan is relentlessly defending himself for is merely giving the facts that when all else is held equal, Arts gives a lower employment outcome than some other degrees. It is sad that it has come to an extremely lengthy debate and an irrational "counter-crusade" against some perceived "crusade" which never really existed. I endorse Brendan's quoting of one of my posts about straw-men:

This whole debate has been spurred from extremely defensive people who have imagined arguments made by imaginary straw-men rather than actual claims by actual people.

Personally, I am surprised that Brendan bothers to put up with it! I wouldn't.

[enwiabe]

But they're not imagined. Brendan is CLEARLY pushing an agenda, and I'm calling him for it. That agenda is made clear by the proportions in which he posts these articles about poor earnings and low job prospects for Arts students. You can spin it as 'OMGZ JUST POSTIN' DA FACTS' but he has a CLEAR editorial discretion in what facts he posts.

This editing power that he exercises has formed a viewpoint which he refuses to admit. And that is what irks me, and that is what I have been trying to get him to admit.

[bucket]

And that is what irks me, and that is what I have been trying to get him to admit.

Why do you need him to admit it so badly?
Satisfaction of victory or something?

[BA22]

But they're not imagined. Brendan is CLEARLY pushing an agenda, and I'm calling him for it. That agenda is made clear by the proportions in which he posts these articles about poor earnings and low job prospects for Arts students. You can spin it as 'OMGZ JUST POSTIN' DA FACTS' but he has a CLEAR editorial discretion in what facts he posts.

This editing power that he exercises has formed a viewpoint which he refuses to admit. And that is what irks me, and that is what I have been trying to get him to admit.

People push their agendas on this site all the time, i push several of my own from time to time

Why is it so important that Brendan be forced to admit his

[Collin Li]

It doesn't matter though. Whether he is pushing an agenda or not is irrelevant because they are still facts! The best response is to just state nicely that the evidence is biased, and counter it with other evidence (if this is so). Or say something like "employment isn't the only thing that matters" and I'm sure Brendan wouldn't disagree with that either.

Nowhere has Brendan said: don't do Arts. He may personally think that for himself, as I do, but he completely respects that others might want to, because of their own individual preferences and values!

[brendan]

Why is it so important that Brendan be forced to admit his

Because he may have an agenda of his own.

[enwiabe]

The reason why I want him to admit it is so that users can read what Brendan posts with a grain of salt. Not all of his links are to respected reuters/AP news articles. Some are to BLOGS and non-peer reviewed research work. In that case, what is being posted might not NECESSARILY be true but rather things that are manipulated by people pushing agendas. Once you know the viewpoint of someone, you can weigh it up with whatever "facts" are being presented to think critically for oneself.

[Collin Li]

Here is a better, and more diplomatic solution:

Here is what I am telling you to do, if you love Arts but feel insecure about Brendan's posts:

1) Achieve higher than the norm. Statistics do not limit the individual's capability, rather it is the converse: the individual's capability limits statistics!

2) Understand that logically, if employment is not the only virtue (we should all agree with this - well actually, it's up to you), then Arts is not necessarily bad. If we only cared about employment we would be wise to take heed to Brendan's articles with much more than a grain of salt, but because there are other factors to consider (fun, passion, etc.), not to mention that your individual employment opportunity function is based on your own interests, then you may actually maximize the combination of your values and preferences by doing Arts. He never said this can't be the case. Note that he never gave any advice on whether you should do Arts or not.

[enwiabe]

I care not about diplomacy in this situation. I care about lifting the cover off of a subversive agenda.

[Collin Li]

This explains the so-called "agenda" much better:

I have said this in another quote in a language that people didn't understand (normative statements and positive statements):

If you are annoyed by the facts (positive statements), it is not because the facts are annoying. It is because the conclusion is annoying.

But the conclusion comes from an extra input - it comes from yourself: that is your value-input (normative statement).

If A means B, that's a fact.

If B is bad (your value input), then now we can draw the conclusion:

A means B, and B is bad, so that means A is bad!

Brendan has only supplied the fact. The value-input, which is necessary for your conclusion, comes from yourself. You are only getting annoyed by your own values and preferences, not any "agenda" of Brendan's.

[BA22]

But this has clearly turned away from the topic at hand and become a case of you wanting to take Brendan on

You have to honest dan that you've wanted to take him on for a long time, you used to support Brendan's posting on this site, but ever since he targeted your welcome message on the homepage, you've gone a bit off him

I know i'm being antagonistic, but i can't shake the feeling that this is personal

[brendan]

I care not about diplomacy in this situation. I care about lifting the cover off of a subversive agenda.

Hardly. It's more like distracting people away from discussing the actual topic: http://vcenotes.com/forum/index.php/topic,7719.0.html

You yourself even refused to dispute the actual data, rather you choose to go after the messenger, me.

[enwiabe]

Right, but why A means B?

Brendan ONLY posts about A means B in terms of Arts.

There are also some C's that mean D's, and some E's that mean F's! Why not post about the completion rates of Arts students? Brendan hasn't given us those figures!

Instead he REPEATEDLY drums in "A means B". And I impugn that as an agenda. And I wish to uncover this agenda for readers of his topics so that they can be more critical of what they're reading.

[Collin Li]

So what? Where did he say that his evidence is comprehensive and a world-view of all relevancies to Arts.

When you study a subject, you might want to find some information about one topic. You go to the library and look for that topic.

In a similar manner, if you want to find out about employment outcomes for Arts graduates, you come here to Brendan's thread. If you want to get information about Arts for something else, Brendan probably isn't your expert. Brendan is well-researched in employment outcomes for many fields of studies!