ATAR Notes: Forum

General Discussion => General Discussion Boards => News and Politics => Topic started by: Thu Thu Train on September 15, 2012, 03:52:19 pm

Title: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Thu Thu Train on September 15, 2012, 03:52:19 pm
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-09-15/anti-us-protests-hit-sydney/4263372
Quote
Angry protests over a film made in the United States that mocks the Prophet Mohammed have spread to Australia, with a large demonstration outside the US consulate in Sydney.
Yeah guys show them how peaceful you are. Don't conform to stereotypes or anything.


Meanwhile: EXTREMELY NSFW
http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-one-murdered-because-of-this-image,29553/?ref=auto
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: slothpomba on September 15, 2012, 04:42:00 pm
Anti-Islam film: What we know

Video mocking Prophet Muhammad spurs attacks on US diplomatic missions in Benghazi and Cairo.

(http://www.aljazeera.com/mritems/Images/2012/9/13//201291364250853734_20.jpg)


An obscure slapstick film said to be entitled Innocence of Muslims or Life of Muhammed has been cited as the cause for riots at US diplomatic posts in Egypt and Libya.

But the existence of the purported filmmaker, Sam Bacile, allegedly a 52-year-old Israeli-American real estate developer, has not been proven.

In interviews with the AP news agency and the Wall Street Journal, a man calling himself "Sam Bacile" said he had raised about $5m to produce the film. He also was quoted describing Islam as "a cancer", and claimed he had raised money from "about 100 Jewish donors" to make the video.

But the interview subject did not even give the same age during his two known press interviews, as he told the AP he was 56.

The man said the amateur, two-hour-long film had involved dozens of actors and was produced in California in 2011. But new reports suggest neither any prior social media presence by the director nor any IMDB page for the film.

The director of the California Film Commission - which issues permits for films that are shot in the state, told the Huffington Post that no permit was ever granted to someone by the name "Sam Bacile".

'Desert Warrior'

The trailer for the film - which itself is so far unavailable to the public - portrays Islam’s Prophet Muhammad as a fraud and a womaniser, and depicts him having sex. The entire film has only been shown once in public, at a theatre in Hollywood, said the source who identified himself as "Bacile".

He also explained he made the film because “after 9/11 everybody should be in front of the judge”, AP reported. "Even Jesus, even Muhammad."

But actors who participated in the filming now say they had no idea the film was even about Muhamad or Islam. The original casting call was reportedly for a film called "Desert Warrior" by director Alan Roberts.

And all the film's religious references were actually dubbed after the original shooting.

"Bacile" is now reportedly in hiding, even though reports suggest that the name is merely cover for a larger group, or a pseudonym for someone who may be neither Israeli nor Jewish - but who cited such an identify to inflame tensions.

One of the actresses who says she was tricked into being in the film says "Bacile" told her on set that he was Egyptian, and that he spoke Arabic to other men present.

Reuters has reported that Egypt's Coptic Orthodox church issued a statement condemning some Egyptian Christians living aboard who it said had financed "the production of a film insulting Prophet Muhammad".

In Egypt and Libya, public anger at the video spilled over on Tuesday, leading to the death of the US ambassador in Benghazi, Libya and the evacuation of embassy workers in Cairo.

Spread on social media

How did an obscure film trailer come to have international ramifications? It was first posted on YouTube by a user called "sam bacile" in July 2012, and has received about 450,000 views to date.

The trailer began to get more attention in September. On September 4, the same user posted a version dubbed in Arabic, which has garnered tens of thousands of views.

Morris Sadek, a Coptic Christian born in Egypt but who lives in the US, told AP he had been promoting the film on his website. He also tweeted a link to the trailer on September 9.

Sadek, the head of the National American Coptic Assembly, is known for his vehemently anti-Islam views, and told the Wall Street Journal that “the violence that it [the film] caused in Egypt is further evidence of how violent the religion and people are".

Terry Jones, the Florida pastor whose burning of Qurans in 2011 spurred riots across the Muslim world leading to several deaths, also reportedly promoted the film.

The Arabic version of the trailer received heavy media coverage in Egypt last week, including by controversial hardline TV host Khaled Abdallah, who reported on the film on September 8.

A clip of the show was posted to YouTube on September 9, where it has received almost 400,000 views so far.

"The operation behind this film appears to be extreme Egyptian Copts who want to discredit the Morsi government and create a provocation," journalist Max Blumenthal told Al Jazeera.

"They oppose the revolution and are aligned with Christian right groups who have an apocalyptic, theocratic agenda and who are inciting against Muslim-Americans," Blumenthal said, adding, "They put Muslims in the US in danger, they put Copts in Egypt in danger, and they're putting US diplomats in danger."

YouTube clip blocked

The Afghan government on Wednesday temporarily blocked YouTube in an effort to discourage people from watching the clip. YouTube also blocked the video in Egypt, agency reports said.

In a statement issued on Wednesday, the company said: "We work hard to create a community everyone can enjoy and which also enables people to express different opinions.

"This can be a challenge because what's OK in one country can be offensive elsewhere.

"This video - which is widely available on the web - is clearly within our guidelines and so will stay on YouTube. However, given the very difficult situation in Libya and Egypt we have temporarily restricted access in both countries.

"Our hearts are with the families of the people murdered in [Tuesday's] attack in Libya."

Observers say Google has grown more averse to removing videos. After its 2006 acquisition of YouTube, it was accused of censorship in several high-profile controversies.

"They're squeezed on all sides," said Rebecca MacKinnon, a fellow at the New America Foundation. "But because of pressure from a lot of people who feel they made the wrong decisions, they now generally err on the side of keeping things up."

In recent years, Google has used technology to filter out videos in certain countries to comply with local regulations.

Source: Al Jazeera and agencies

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2012/09/201291214042970150.html
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: DisaFear on September 15, 2012, 04:46:17 pm
Thanks for the clear and concise information about this thing. I wasn't sure what to believe, reading different stuff in different newspapers.
Interesting tale.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Russ on September 15, 2012, 04:52:22 pm
Merged two threads. Please post reasonably here, thanks.

The film clip is in bad taste but the reaction is just disgusting and should be condemned by everybody. Sheesh.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: slothpomba on September 15, 2012, 05:06:12 pm
California Man Confirms Role in Anti-Islam Film

(LOS ANGELES) — The search for those behind the provocative, anti-Muslim film implicated in violent protests in Egypt and Libya led Wednesday to a California Coptic Christian convicted of financial crimes who acknowledged his role in managing and providing logistics for the production.

Nakoula Basseley Nakoula, 55, told The Associated Press in an interview outside Los Angeles that he helped with logistics for the filming of “Innocence of Muslims,” which mocked Muslims and the prophet Muhammad and may have caused inflamed mobs that attacked U.S. missions in Egypt and Libya. He provided the first details about a shadowy production group behind the film.

Nakoula denied he directed the film and said he knew the self-described filmmaker, Sam Bacile. But the cell phone number that AP contacted Tuesday to reach the filmmaker who identified himself as Sam Bacile traced to the same address near Los Angeles where AP found Nakoula. Federal court papers said Nakoula’s aliases included Nicola Bacily, Erwin Salameh and others.

Nakoula told the AP that he was a Coptic Christian and said the film’s director supported the concerns of Christian Copts about their treatment by Muslims.

Nakoula denied he had posed as Bacile. During a conversation outside his home, he offered his driver’s license to show his identity but kept his thumb over his middle name, Basseley. Records checks by the AP subsequently found it and other connections to the Bacile persona.

The AP located Bacile after obtaining his cell phone number from Morris Sadek, a conservative Coptic Christian in the U.S. who had promoted the anti-Muslim film in recent days on his website. Egypt’s Christian Coptic population has long decried what they describe as a history of discrimination and occasional violence from the country’s Arab majority.

Pastor Terry Jones of Gainesville, Fla., who burned Qurans on the ninth anniversary of 9/11, said he spoke with the movie’s director on the phone Wednesday and prayed for him. He said he has not met the filmmaker in person, but the man contacted him a few weeks ago about promoting the movie.

“I have not met him. Sam Bacile, that is not his real name,” Jones said. “I just talked to him on the phone. He is definitely in hiding and does not reveal his identity. He was quite honestly fairly shook up concerning the events and what is happening. A lot of people are not supporting him.”

The film was implicated in protests that resulted in the burning of the U.S. consulate Tuesday in the eastern Libyan city of Benghazi.

Libyan officials said Wednesday that Ambassador Chris Stevens and three other embassy employees were killed during the mob violence, but U.S. officials now say they are investigating whether the assault was a planned terrorist strike linked to Tuesday’s 11-year anniversary of the 9/11 terror attacks.

Nakoula, who talked guardedly about his role, pleaded no contest in 2010 to federal bank fraud charges in California and was ordered to pay more than $790,000 in restitution. He was also sentenced to 21 months in federal prison and ordered not to use computers or the Internet for five years without approval from his probation officer.

The YouTube account, “Sam Bacile,” which was used to publish excerpts of the provocative movie in July, was used to post comments online as recently as Tuesday, including this defense of the film written in Arabic: “It is a 100 percent American movie, you cows.”

Assistant U.S. Attorney Jennifer Leigh Williams said Nakoula set up fraudulent bank accounts using stolen identities and Social Security numbers, then checks from those accounts would be deposited into other bogus accounts from which Nakoula would withdraw money at ATM machines.

It was “basically a check-kiting scheme,” the prosecutor told the AP. “You try to get the money out of the bank before the bank realizes they are drawn from a fraudulent account. There basically is no money.”

The actors in the film issued a joint statement Wednesday saying they were misled about the project and said some of their dialogue was crudely dubbed during post-production.

In the English language version of the trailer, direct references to Muhammad appear to be the result of post-production changes to the movie. Either actors aren’t seen when the name “Muhammad” is spoken in the overdubbed sound, or they appear to be mouthing something else as the name of the prophet is spoken.

“The entire cast and crew are extremely upset and feel taken advantage of by the producer,” said the statement, obtained by the Los Angeles Times. “We are 100 percent not behind this film and were grossly misled about its intent and purpose. We are shocked by the drastic rewrites of the script and lies that were told to all involved. We are deeply saddened by the tragedies that have occurred.”

The person who identified himself as Bacile and described himself as the film’s writer and director told the AP on Tuesday that he had gone into hiding. But doubts rose about the man’s identity amid a flurry of false claims about his background and role in the purported film.

Bacile told the AP he was an Israeli-born, 56-year-old, Jewish writer and director. But a Christian activist involved in the film project, Steve Klein, told AP on Wednesday that Bacile was a pseudonym and that he was Christian.

Klein had told the AP on Tuesday that the filmmaker was an Israeli Jew who was concerned for family members who live in Egypt.

Officials in Israel said there was no record of Bacile as an Israeli citizen.

When the AP initially left a message for Bacile, Klein contacted the AP from another number to confirm the interview request was legitimate then Bacile called back from his own cell phone.

Klein said he didn’t know the real name of the man he called “Sam,” who came to him for advice on First Amendment issues.

About 15 key players from the Middle East - from Syria, Iraq, Turkey, Pakistan, Iran and a couple Coptic Christians from Egypt - worked on the film, Klein said.

“Most of them won’t tell me their real names because they’re terrified,” Klein said. “He was really scared and now he’s so nervous. He’s turned off his phone.”

The Southern Poverty Law Center, which monitors hate groups, said Klein is a former Marine and longtime religious-right activist who has helped train paramilitary militias at a California church. It described Klein as founder of Courageous Christians United, which conducts protests outside abortion clinics, Mormon temples and mosques.

It quoted Klein as saying he believes that California is riddled with Muslim Brotherhood sleeper cells “who are awaiting the trigger date and will begin randomly killing as many of us as they can.”

In his brief interview with the AP, Bacile defiantly called Islam a cancer and said he intended the film to be a provocative political statement condemning the religion.

But several key facts Bacile provided proved false or questionable. Bacile told AP he was 56 but identified himself on his YouTube profile as 74. Bacile said he is a real estate developer, but Bacile does not appear in searches of California state licenses, including the Department of Real Estate.

Hollywood and California film industry groups and permit agencies said they had no records of the project under the name “Innocence of Muslims,” but a Los Angeles film permit agency later found a record of a movie filmed in Los Angeles last year under the working title “Desert Warriors.”

A man who answered a phone listed for the Vine Theater, a faded Hollywood movie house, confirmed that the film had run for a least a day, and possibly longer, several months ago, arranged by a customer known as “Sam.”

Google Inc., which owns YouTube, pulled down the video Wednesday in Egypt, citing a legal complaint. It was still accessible in the U.S. and other countries.

Klein told the AP that he vowed to help make the movie but warned the filmmaker that “you’re going to be the next Theo van Gogh.” Van Gogh was a Dutch filmmaker killed by a Muslim extremist in 2004 after making a film that was perceived as insulting to Islam.

“We went into this knowing this was probably going to happen,” Klein said.

___

By GILLIAN FLACCUS and STEPHEN BRAUN

Braun reported from Washington. Associated Press writers Shaya Tayefe Mohajer and Michael Blood in Los Angeles, Tamara Lush in Tampa, Fla., and AP researcher Rhonda Shafner in New York contributed to this report.

Source: Associated Press

http://nation.time.com/2012/09/12/california-man-confirms-role-in-anti-islam-film/
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: slothpomba on September 15, 2012, 05:18:41 pm
We know a couple things so far:


Here is a link of the video, make sure to watch to at least half way through to see the controversial parts and the hilariously bad editing and dubbing.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: mark_alec on September 15, 2012, 06:59:31 pm
Looks like it is a porno.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: slothpomba on September 15, 2012, 07:17:13 pm
Quote from: mark_alec on September 15, 2012, 06:59:31 pm
Looks like it is a porno.

Funny you say that..

http://www.newser.com/story/154086/innocence-of-muslims-made-by-porno-director.html

(Newser) – Looks like the director of Innocence of Muslims wasn't all that innocent. The director of the schlocky film trailer that sparked rioting across the Middle East was 65-year-old Alan Roberts, the maker of softcore porn flicks like The Happy Hooker Goes Hollywood, Gawker reports. Cast members and crew confirm that producer "Sam Bacile"—actually Nakoula Basseley Nakoula—hired Roberts, who apparently had no idea he was directing a piece of anti-Islamic propaganda.

"They redubbed it, they brought in the actors, put in new sounds, changed the names," says a colleague. "And this was done later, before it was initially released. Of course Alan had nothing to do with it." No comment from Roberts, however, who has "turned off his phone" and is lying low since the riots broke out, the colleague says. Another hint that Roberts directed It: The cast actually includes a porno actor and a fetish model, LA Weekly reports. (See how the actors say they were misled into making the video.)
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Lolly on September 15, 2012, 07:28:45 pm
Ok I'll admit I'm still disorientated but translating film into arabic> instant furore> what else do you expect?
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: thushan on September 15, 2012, 11:41:39 pm
The f did I just read? If people hadn't been killed over this I would have called this simply a pathetic circus. Now its like really serious shit. A making of a film trailer causing people to get killed and families torn apart? this is depressing.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: slothpomba on September 16, 2012, 12:48:05 am
Quote from: thushan on September 15, 2012, 11:41:39 pm
The f did I just read? If people hadn't been killed over this I would have called this simply a pathetic circus. Now its like really serious shit. A making of a film trailer causing people to get killed and families torn apart? this is depressing.

This is of particular interest to me and most analysis think that its only tangentially related to the film. Most sources are reporting that the initial attack, the one on the Libyian embassy, was pre-planned. Lets not forget it roughly co-incided with 9/11 anyway. All this does is serve as a cover.

On the Islamic websites i participate in, most people are legitimately outraged. The more senior and wise people realise this isn't the way, if anything, it re-enforces the films image. A lot of people, even within these communities believe its just a reason for a wider outpouring against the USA and around the perception that they've been targeting Muslims, Muslim countries and supporting Israel despite its horrible human rights record.

It's almost like the black rights movement in the USA. The real intellectual powerhouses like Martin Luther King were working so hard to achieve lasting change. Their movement was co-oped by violent elements who actually made things a whole lot worse. These violent elements aren't helping Muslims, they're making things worse. A lot of the older and more mature Muslims realise this along with many of the intellectual leaders of the community.

If you look at the recent protests in Sydney for example, it was largely youth and they were pretty much a spitting image of thugs.

(http://resources3.news.com.au/images/2012/09/15/1226474/813907-violence-erupts.jpg)

(http://images.smh.com.au/2012/09/15/3637938/DP_Protest-20120915174210544762-620x414.jpg)

(http://resources1.news.com.au/images/2012/09/15/1226474/813877-violent-sydney-protest.jpg)

(http://imageshack.us/a/img339/954/injuredassistedcolleagu.jpg)

There were people there also giving out speeches and handing out introductory information about Islam. Just generally talking to the community. Because of the violent elements though, all their work and efforts were rendered useless.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Biceps on September 16, 2012, 01:02:57 am
Muslims take their religion seriously why make this movie?
It's like the movie makers are asking for these repercussions.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: slothpomba on September 16, 2012, 01:15:12 am
Counter-protests have started springing up:

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s720x720/576946_102211123269466_1364622331_n.jpg)

(http://i47.tinypic.com/kqply.jpg)

(http://imageshack.us/a/img819/8651/53426610219481660443053.jpg)

 (https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/538686_102231759934069_1436504111_n.jpg)

(http://hereandnow.wbur.org/files/2012/09/0914-libya-photos.jpg)

The sorry project - Facebook

An interview with a counter-protester:

Quote
“It’s really heartbreaking, it’s very emotional. I know the morning after the attack, I just sat there and cried. This is not what we fought so hard for. Toppling Qadaffi was something really big and we rose in the eyes of many across the world. It’s so hard, as a Libyan-American, to be dealing with this right now when we’ve worked so hard to get where we are.”
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: paulsterio on September 16, 2012, 01:21:15 am
I just watched it, it just looked completely stupid, I don't even see why it's an issue - the guy who made it is a complete denegrate.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Soul_Khan on September 16, 2012, 01:33:13 am
Quote from: oglow100 on September 16, 2012, 01:02:57 am
Muslims take their religion seriously why make this movie?
It's like the movie makers are asking for these repercussions.
I think the movie was extremely stupid.. however I support their freedom to make it. The fact of the matter is we can't let freedom of speech that is one of the foundations of our civilization be trumped just because a bunch of thugs get butthurt and can't take criticism.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: paulsterio on September 16, 2012, 01:38:58 am
I agree with you, Soul_Khan, we also must condemn violent action. Just because some idiot decides to go and make a controversial movie does not mean that an attack on other innocent people are justified.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: ninwa on September 16, 2012, 01:44:56 am
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A2z6pAiCIAA5Z7g.jpg)

Stay classy, radical Islam bogans!
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: enwiabe on September 16, 2012, 02:16:12 am
I'm just super glad for the counter-protest movement that has sprung up in Libya. If they can do more to quell their own radicals, they'll move a lot more quickly towards prosperity. Something we all want to see.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: thushan on September 16, 2012, 08:33:23 am
Quote from: ninatron on September 16, 2012, 01:44:56 am
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A2z6pAiCIAA5Z7g.jpg)

Stay classy, radical Islam bogans!

@Enwiabe's comment - I hope so too.

@ Nina's picture. You gotta be joking. That's a little kid who doesn't know any better who's been thrown into these ideas. I don't believe it.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: ninwa on September 16, 2012, 10:54:06 am
I know. I see it as child abuse. Reminds me of the Westboro baptist church idiots that make their kids hold signs saying "god hates fags" etc
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Biceps on September 16, 2012, 04:39:14 pm
Quote from: Soul_Khan on September 16, 2012, 01:33:13 am
Quote from: oglow100 on September 16, 2012, 01:02:57 am
Muslims take their religion seriously why make this movie?
It's like the movie makers are asking for these repercussions.
I think the movie was extremely stupid.. however I support their freedom to make it. The fact of the matter is we can't let freedom of speech that is one of the foundations of our civilization be trumped just because a bunch of thugs get butthurt and can't take criticism.

I disagree. The movie is targeting a man who is highly respected in the Islamic religion.
Freedom of speech has limits as well. These limits are transgressed when it hurts other people.
We are talking about people who love Mohammad PBUH more than themselves and their parents.
If someone humiliated your parents that way you would be surely offended enough to have the movie removed.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: ninwa on September 16, 2012, 05:03:08 pm
I wouldn't be offended enough to go murdering people (much less people who have ZERO association with the actual movie apart from the fact that they might share a nationality)
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Russ on September 16, 2012, 05:21:39 pm
It's also symptomatic of the fact that of all the religions, Islam is the one that tends to overreact dramatically to any (perceived) slight, which makes freedom of speech a mockery.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Biceps on September 16, 2012, 05:26:31 pm
Quote from: Thomas the Tank Engine on September 16, 2012, 05:21:39 pm
It's also symptomatic of the fact that of all the religions, Islam is the one that tends to overreact dramatically to any (perceived) slight, which makes freedom of speech a mockery.
They react that way because they get genuinely offended by any disrespect towards their religious leader.
Generally other religions don't take them so seriously.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: ninwa on September 16, 2012, 05:27:21 pm
That doesn't make it right
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Biceps on September 16, 2012, 05:28:32 pm
i'm not saying it does. I'm simply stating why they do what they do.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: brenden on September 16, 2012, 05:40:20 pm
Quote from: oglow100 on September 16, 2012, 05:28:32 pm
i'm not saying it does. I'm simply stating why they do what they do.
Which shouldn't contravene the rights of others to criticise the religion.
People's religious beliefs are such a protected concept, it's interesting to see zealous defense. Like. A restaurant owner might believe his restaurant is the best, better than the other restaurants, live and breath his restaurants and love it more than his parents and himself yet it is acceptable for a food critic to shred that restaurant to shreds. It's interesting to see the different standards that apply to religious belief.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Biceps on September 16, 2012, 05:50:21 pm
Quote from: brenden on September 16, 2012, 05:40:20 pm
Quote from: oglow100 on September 16, 2012, 05:28:32 pm
i'm not saying it does. I'm simply stating why they do what they do.
Which shouldn't contravene the rights of others to criticise the religion.
People's religious beliefs are such a protected concept, it's interesting to see zealous defense. Like. A restaurant owner might believe his restaurant is the best, better than the other restaurants, live and breath his restaurants and love it more than his parents and himself yet it is acceptable for a food critic to shred that restaurant to shreds. It's interesting to see the different standards that apply to religious belief.
I guess loyalty plays a vital role in that case.
People feel a void they must fill if their religion is to somehow be attacked in any way, shape, or form.
Notice that Muslims are the most confronted people in the world.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Mao on September 16, 2012, 06:51:59 pm
Quote from: oglow100 on September 16, 2012, 05:50:21 pm
Notice that Muslims are the most confronted people in the world.

Can you please confront a Buddhist and let me know how that goes?
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Biceps on September 16, 2012, 07:04:47 pm
Quote from: Mao on September 16, 2012, 06:51:59 pm
Quote from: oglow100 on September 16, 2012, 05:50:21 pm
Notice that Muslims are the most confronted people in the world.

Can you please confront a Buddhist and let me know how that goes?
That would be hilarious to say the least.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: shinny on September 16, 2012, 07:30:50 pm
Think that this is quite relevant.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Camo on September 16, 2012, 07:54:46 pm
The editing and the sound, omg.

Seriously, people have the right to believe in what they want to believe, they have the right to freedom of speech, but nobody has the right to do harm onto another.
To me its more 9/11 than this film.

I mean, if anything I think a film director would be more disgusted that this would get more recognition in the media, then trash like this.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: paulsterio on September 16, 2012, 07:55:59 pm
I still think it's rubbish, if they're insulted by something like this, then I don't really know what to say to them.

It's like someone making a video about how Australia is a shit country...etc. I'd just be like, wtf...and move on with life.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Camo on September 16, 2012, 07:57:39 pm
The difference here though is people are taking offence, when honestly it should just be the mentality of shrug your shoulders and walk away.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Soul_Khan on September 16, 2012, 08:03:19 pm
Quote from: Camo on September 16, 2012, 07:57:39 pm
The difference here though is people are taking offence, when honestly it should just be the mentality of shrug your shoulders and walk away.

It's understandable why they are taking offence though, their religion is deeply ingrained into their life; it forms a part of their identity. Their devotion to their god and religion is too great to just walk away from it.

But think of all the times where Jesus, Krishna or any other religious figure has been ridiculed and criticized, it makes you wonder why theirs is a much more violent reaction from Muslims than people of other religions. Could it be that the religion itself is a catalyst to this violence?
 
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: shinny on September 16, 2012, 08:04:38 pm
Quote from: paulsterio on September 16, 2012, 07:55:59 pm
I still think it's rubbish, if they're insulted by something like this, then I don't really know what to say to them.

People have a right to be insulted if they wish, but taking such dire action upon that is what I actually have an issue with. It's not like we saw people killing each other over Jesus Christ Vampire Hunter (but seriously, check out that plot).
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Genericname2365 on September 16, 2012, 08:12:30 pm
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A20hNe6CEAA0wE0.png:large)
I don't think anyone saw this coming.  ::)
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Soul_Khan on September 16, 2012, 08:15:02 pm
Quote from: Genericname2365 on September 16, 2012, 08:12:30 pm
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A20hNe6CEAA0wE0.png:large)
I don't think anyone saw this coming.  ::)
Is Andrew Bolt serious.. cause I'm not sure if his trolling. How is 100 people protesting with hatred representative of the majority of Muslims in Australia?

Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Genericname2365 on September 16, 2012, 08:24:02 pm
Quote from: Soul_Khan on September 16, 2012, 08:15:02 pm
Quote from: Genericname2365 on September 16, 2012, 08:12:30 pm
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A20hNe6CEAA0wE0.png:large)
I don't think anyone saw this coming.  ::)
Is Andrew Bolt serious.. cause I'm not sure if his trolling. How is 100 people protesting with hatred representative of the majority of Muslims in Australia?
Well, this type of sensationalist article is hardly out of character for him.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Russ on September 16, 2012, 08:34:25 pm
Andrew Bolt is doing what he always does, which is taking a single valid point and exaggerating it so far that you just have to laugh

(read any of his articles, they all follow this pattern, which is why he has such a following)
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: brenden on September 16, 2012, 08:38:11 pm
Can't even verablise how much I hate Andrew Bolt >.<
He actually started out as some correspondent for the Age (foreign, I think). Don't really know what happened.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: JellyDonut on September 16, 2012, 08:44:20 pm
Breaking News: Muslim extremists exercise their right to free speech by suppressing rights to free speech
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Starlight on September 16, 2012, 10:15:43 pm
These protests in sydney are disgusting. I look at the newspaper and see some 4 year old kid holding up a sign that I am not even going to post on here about what it said. Children should not be brainwashed into promoting such violence.

I'm sorry but this has just crossed the line, Australia is renowned for being a peaceful country and we welcome people from all over the world just to get our policemen injured as a result of religion. Honestly this has gone too far and makes me sick to my stomach.


Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: slothpomba on September 16, 2012, 10:16:28 pm
Quote from: paulsterio on September 16, 2012, 01:38:58 am
I agree with you, Soul_Khan, we also must condemn violent action. Just because some idiot decides to go and make a controversial movie does not mean that an attack on other innocent people are justified.

Quote from: Thomas the Tank Engine on September 16, 2012, 05:21:39 pm
It's also symptomatic of the fact that of all the religions, Islam is the one that tends to overreact dramatically to any (perceived) slight, which makes freedom of speech a mockery.

Quote from: ninatron on September 16, 2012, 05:03:08 pm
I wouldn't be offended enough to go murdering people (much less people who have ZERO association with the actual movie apart from the fact that they might share a nationality)

I think we need to keep in mind as well that this is a tiny minority if Muslims. The attack on the embassy was almost certainly pre-planned and it did in-fact occur on September 11 local time. We know Libya was awash with arms and rivaling fractions after the civil war. So, we should almost certainly look at this particular event in a different light.

Hell, if you believe that this is simply a result of the so called trailer after informing yourself about the situation, you've got as big rocks in your head as some of the people who result to violence simply because they were offended. It's clear the attack on the embassy and the death of the ambassador just wasn't over the movie though.

Everyone is ignoring the obvious geopolitical dimensions here or haven't even bothered to fully inform themselves (bit of an irony then hey).

People hated the USA way before this film came out. Now is just a convenient time.

----

Quote
The US Ambassador to Libya Chris Stevens and three staff members at the US consulate in Benghazi were deliberately murdered Tuesday night Sept 11 just after memorial ceremonies were held in America for the victims of the 9/11 outrage. debkafile’s counter-terror sources report exclusively that far from being a spontaneous raid by angry Islamists, it was a professionally executed terrorist operation by a professional Al Qaeda assassination team, whose 20 members acted under the orders of their leader Ayman al Zawahri after special training. They were all Libyans, freed last year from prisons where they were serving sentences for terrorism passed during the late Muammar Qaddafi’s rule.

In a video tape released a few hours before the attack, Zawahri called on the faithful to take revenge on the United States for liquidating one of the organization’s top operatives, Libyan-born Abu Yahya al-Libi in June by a US drone in northwestern Pakistan.

Its release was the “go” signal for the hit team to attack the US diplomats in Benghazi.

To mask their mission, they stormed the consulate on the back of a violent protest by hundreds of Islamists against a film said to insult Prophet Muhammed produced by a Florida real estate agent called Sam Bacile, who has been described as of Israeli origin.

http://www.debka.com/article/22353/Al-Zawahri-personally-ordered-Al-Qaeda-to-murder-US-Ambassador-Stevens-

This is an Israeli source as well, on the whole, their media doesn't tend to be absolutely glowing and it simply makes sense it wasn't just an angry mob.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: ninwa on September 16, 2012, 10:17:57 pm
Quote from: El2012 on September 16, 2012, 10:15:43 pm
These protests in sydney are disgusting. I look at the newspaper and see some 4 year old kid holding up a sign that I am not even going to post on here about what it said. Children should not be brainwashed into promoting such violence.

I'm sorry but this has just crossed the line, Australia is renowned for being a peaceful country and we welcome people from all over the world just to get our policemen injured as a result of religion. Honestly this has gone too far and makes me sick to my stomach.

Sorry... I already posted it above :(
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Starlight on September 16, 2012, 10:22:41 pm
Quote from: ninatron on September 16, 2012, 10:17:57 pm
Quote from: El2012 on September 16, 2012, 10:15:43 pm
These protests in sydney are disgusting. I look at the newspaper and see some 4 year old kid holding up a sign that I am not even going to post on here about what it said. Children should not be brainwashed into promoting such violence.

I'm sorry but this has just crossed the line, Australia is renowned for being a peaceful country and we welcome people from all over the world just to get our policemen injured as a result of religion. Honestly this has gone too far and makes me sick to my stomach.

Sorry... I already posted it above :(

Haha yeah I realized that once I posted
Ceebs editing :P
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: slothpomba on September 16, 2012, 10:48:56 pm
Quote
Liberation narratives are always awkward and rarely accurate. Those who assist in toppling dictators tend to leave the ground fresh for another insurrection. The flipside of the Arab Spring is fundamentalist usurpation. Chatter about democracy is meaningless when the institutional will is absent. The new Libyan regime has been supported by Western governments, but it lives precariously.

All that mob violence generally requires is a vague pretext to bolster a lynching. What that pretext was in the Benghazi killings is not entirely clear. Was it the noxious video Innocence of Muslims, made by a real-estate developer and promoted by Koran-burning preacher Terry Jones? Or was mob violence a gift on the anniversary of the September 11 2001 attacks, orchestrated with devastating effect?

US officials have taken it upon themselves to investigate what motivated the attacks. It will not require the gifted and the intelligent to discern some of the causes. Innocence of Muslims is merely a sideshow to both the way American power is projected and the Muslim world’s own problems, though it provides a pungent distraction for troubled communities. It also shows that mobilised groups of revolt can be formed rapidly, bypassing official channels and imperilling stability.

Islamophobia in the US, trumpeted by Jones and backed by such figures as the Egyptian-American lawyer Morris Sadek, provides one side of the equation. The counter is provided by such organised efforts as seen in Benghazi. Both sides nourish each other’s assertions of intolerance. The power of these unofficial protests has reached such a level that General Martin Dempsey, chairman of the US Joints Chief of Staff, personally called Jones to demand that he stop promoting the film.

https://theconversation.edu.au/death-in-benghazi-the-dark-side-of-the-citizens-revolt-in-libya-9552

-----------------

Free speech isn't absolutely free anywhere in the world. This isn't even true in the USA, where their constitutional protections for speech are much stronger than ours. Their laws protect a fair degree of hateful, racist, homophobic or sexist bile you can spew. It's a constitutional right. Even their protections don't extend to things like shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater or yelling our "I have a bomb!" in a hospital. These forms of speech clearly have one idiotic reason behind them - to cause fear and fuck with people.

This film quite clearly isn't a scholarly work or journalistic opinion nor art. It does nothing to further discourse in our society or enrich society as a whole. It quite clearly has one purpose and one alone, scorched earth, maximum offense. To agitate people and stir up tensions.

It's intentions are quite clear and dual in purpose:

Firstly,  to stir up hatred for Muslims amongst those who aren't. This is achieved by quoting material selectively and out of context and perpetuating old stereotypes. This is about the level of Fox News or the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. The second purpose is to deliberately provoke Muslims into the very reactions like this. Indeed, the Coptic Christian who did this constantly claimed to be Jewish, it seems a side purpose was to either further the myth that theres something ingrained within Islam to hate Jews or to also have Jews attacked.

It wasn't that long ago the place of fear and hated of Muslims in European society and culture was taken by Jews. It began long before Hitler. I've seen an article that argued the west has simply replaced Jews with Muslims.

We're all focusing on how hateful muslims are...what about the dick that made the film that started this all?

(aware of the stupid grammar mistakes, wrote in parts..mostly fixed now)
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: ninwa on September 17, 2012, 01:15:41 am
The dick that made the film didn't kill innocent people, that's why we're focusing on the Muslims.

You can't possibly argue that he was the true murderer. He merely made a film. It is entirely unreasonable to say that the film justified the taking of lives. Once you start blaming the filmmaker you establish a very, very dangerous slippery slope.

edit:
Also, I don't understand why you are calling for people to focus on the filmmaker immediately after you acknowledged yourself that the film has very little to do with it:

Quote from: kingpomba on September 16, 2012, 10:16:28 pm
Hell, if you believe that this is simply a result of the so called trailer after informing yourself about the situation, you've got as big rocks in your head as some of the people who result to violence simply because they were offended. It's clear the attack on the embassy and the death of the ambassador just wasn't over the movie though.

Everyone is ignoring the obvious geopolitical dimensions here or haven't even bothered to fully inform themselves (bit of an irony then hey).

People hated the USA way before this film came out. Now is just a convenient time.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: paulsterio on September 17, 2012, 01:23:31 am
This is why we shouldn't even have religion in the first place, there would be nothing to hate (eliminating the initial problem) and the issues of aggression would also be more or less curbed.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: enwiabe on September 17, 2012, 01:35:51 am
kingpomba,

tell me how the filmmaker insulting the "prophet" muhammad in ANY WAY justifies physical violence? If you cannot make that logical link, why are you calling for the filmmaker to be blamed? Further, the attacks were on innocents who had nothing to do with the filmmaker. So why should the filmmaker be focussed upon? He's just an idiot who made a shitty film. The extremists actually KILLED people, and you want to focus on the filmmaker? You don't want to focus on the culture of fundamentalism that produces such an egregious reaction?

I think the following is a solid analysis of the situation, and is difficult to disagree with:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/feisal-g-mohamed/the-muhammad-film-protest_b_1884285.html?utm_hp_ref=world

"Feisal G. Mohamed holds degrees in biology, English, and law. He is a Professor in the Department of English of the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, where he also holds appointments in the Unit for Criticism and Interpretive Theory and the Center for South Asian and Middle Eastern Studies."
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: enwiabe on September 17, 2012, 01:25:43 pm
Quote from: oglow100 on September 17, 2012, 12:15:12 pm
No one should offend these people because they clearly don't accept it.

No. We will not kowtow to the demands of terrorist savages. All we will do is drag them, kicking and screaming if need be, into the 21st century (hell, the 19th century even).
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: enwiabe on September 17, 2012, 01:58:02 pm
Another good one:

http://i.imgur.com/7JRO4.jpg
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Truck on September 17, 2012, 02:24:56 pm
I can't understand how any one of these fundamentalists can possibly blame America/the West for this video which was clearly made by a random idiot and not state sponsored at all. To those protesting the video, and somehow seeing it as the responsibility of a western nation to enforce what people put on youtube need to leave western democracies and enjoy their oppressed lives in theocratic shitholes. The sheer stupidity of these protests is astounding.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Biceps on September 17, 2012, 02:37:08 pm
Quote from: teewreck on September 17, 2012, 02:24:56 pm
I can't understand how any one of these fundamentalists can possibly blame America/the West for this video which was clearly made by a random idiot and not state sponsored at all. To those protesting the video, and somehow seeing it as the responsibility of a western nation to enforce what people put on youtube need to leave western democracies and enjoy their oppressed lives in theocratic shitholes. The sheer stupidity of these protests is astounding.
They have a right to be angry and offended. They do not live oppressed lives in theocratic "shitholes". I lived in Lebanon for half my life. Never felt "oppressed."
The people rioting in Sydney are complete idiots. They took it too far. They humiliated Muslims all around the world. They are, however, a minority.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: ninwa on September 17, 2012, 02:43:43 pm
They have the right to be offended. They do NOT have the right to resort to violence to express that offence.

Honestly, it disgusts me that anybody is willing to blame the filmmaker at all. Once you put blame on the film, you DISPEL blame from the true murderers. You essentially say that some part of these riots and killings was justified.

NO, the wanton taking of lives, the destruction of property without cause, the injuring of innocent bystanders who were -just doing their job-, there is ZERO justification for these disgusting acts.

These radicals are like a screaming toddler. Just because the toddler throws a tantrum when the mother refuses to give it candy for dinner doesn't make the mother in the wrong.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Soul_Khan on September 17, 2012, 04:50:24 pm
Quote from: oglow100 on September 17, 2012, 02:37:08 pm
Quote from: teewreck on September 17, 2012, 02:24:56 pm
I can't understand how any one of these fundamentalists can possibly blame America/the West for this video which was clearly made by a random idiot and not state sponsored at all. To those protesting the video, and somehow seeing it as the responsibility of a western nation to enforce what people put on youtube need to leave western democracies and enjoy their oppressed lives in theocratic shitholes. The sheer stupidity of these protests is astounding.
They have a right to be angry and offended. They do not live oppressed lives in theocratic "shitholes". I lived in Lebanon for half my life. Never felt "oppressed."
The people rioting in Sydney are complete idiots. They took it too far. They humiliated Muslims all around the world. They are, however, a minority.
Muslims need to absolutely lighten up a bit, seriously. We can't portray Mohammed in a cartoon or a damn picture without getting these violent reactions from these fundamentalists.. why don't we get the same reaction when South Park and Family Guy for example portray Jesus in a negative light? We are allowed to criticize every other religion out there, but somehow when it comes to Islam the stupidity of political correctness and the status quo disable us from doing so.. stuff that!. Every ideology whether it be religious, political or philosophical should and must be criticized whether it be in an article, a documentary, a comic, or a cartoon.

You can't suppress my right to speak against your religion, whether you are a muslim, a jew, a christian, a hindu, etc, simply because you are offended, that's not how freedom of speech works.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Truck on September 17, 2012, 07:03:16 pm
Quote from: oglow100 on September 17, 2012, 02:37:08 pm
Quote from: teewreck on September 17, 2012, 02:24:56 pm
I can't understand how any one of these fundamentalists can possibly blame America/the West for this video which was clearly made by a random idiot and not state sponsored at all. To those protesting the video, and somehow seeing it as the responsibility of a western nation to enforce what people put on youtube need to leave western democracies and enjoy their oppressed lives in theocratic shitholes. The sheer stupidity of these protests is astounding.
They have a right to be angry and offended. They do not live oppressed lives in theocratic "shitholes". I lived in Lebanon for half my life. Never felt "oppressed."
The people rioting in Sydney are complete idiots. They took it too far. They humiliated Muslims all around the world. They are, however, a minority.


You can be angry and offended without killing people and rioting. But most importantly, you direct that anger towards the people who made the film, not the "west' in general which is incredibly dumb. With that said, and I can't emphasize this enough, the person who made that movie was within his rights to make it. There are just as bad movies made about Christian's and Jews, but they do not react in the same way. As you said, they're a minority, but the fact that so many people try and justify their actions rather then denounce them (not saying it's you) makes me lose a bit of faith in humanity.

Anyway, those people rioting are the only people I referred to, in my post I didn't once say that they represented all muslims. Imo, many countries in the middle east are very much theocratic and I think Islam plays a very large role in determining the legal system in many such countries, but that's neither here nor there.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Biceps on September 17, 2012, 07:50:26 pm
Quote from: teewreck on September 17, 2012, 07:03:16 pm
Quote from: oglow100 on September 17, 2012, 02:37:08 pm
Quote from: teewreck on September 17, 2012, 02:24:56 pm
I can't understand how any one of these fundamentalists can possibly blame America/the West for this video which was clearly made by a random idiot and not state sponsored at all. To those protesting the video, and somehow seeing it as the responsibility of a western nation to enforce what people put on youtube need to leave western democracies and enjoy their oppressed lives in theocratic shitholes. The sheer stupidity of these protests is astounding.
They have a right to be angry and offended. They do not live oppressed lives in theocratic "shitholes". I lived in Lebanon for half my life. Never felt "oppressed."
The people rioting in Sydney are complete idiots. They took it too far. They humiliated Muslims all around the world. They are, however, a minority.


You can be angry and offended without killing people and rioting. But most importantly, you direct that anger towards the people who made the film, not the "west' in general which is incredibly dumb. With that said, and I can't emphasize this enough, the person who made that movie was within his rights to make it. There are just as bad movies made about Christian's and Jews, but they do not react in the same way. As you said, they're a minority, but the fact that so many people try and justify their actions rather then denounce them (not saying it's you) makes me lose a bit of faith in humanity.

Anyway, those people rioting are the only people I referred to, in my post I didn't once say that they represented all muslims. Imo, many countries in the middle east are very much theocratic and I think Islam plays a very large role in determining the legal system in many such countries, but that's neither here nor there.
Actually the only theocratic countries in the middle east are : Yemen, Afghanistan, Somalia, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Mauritania, Oman and Iran. Besides the countries i listed many Islamic countries adopt democratic ideologies.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: pi on September 17, 2012, 08:02:05 pm
Quote from: paulsterio on September 17, 2012, 01:23:31 am
This is why we shouldn't even have religion in the first place, there would be nothing to hate (eliminating the initial problem) and the issues of aggression would also be more or less curbed.

I'm not at all religious, but it's a bit unfair to pin it on religion when it should be pinned on extremists and those can't can't control their emotions instead.

And we both know that removing religion is not going to happen.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Truck on September 17, 2012, 08:05:57 pm
Quote from: oglow100 on September 17, 2012, 07:50:26 pm
Quote from: teewreck on September 17, 2012, 07:03:16 pm
Quote from: oglow100 on September 17, 2012, 02:37:08 pm
Quote from: teewreck on September 17, 2012, 02:24:56 pm
I can't understand how any one of these fundamentalists can possibly blame America/the West for this video which was clearly made by a random idiot and not state sponsored at all. To those protesting the video, and somehow seeing it as the responsibility of a western nation to enforce what people put on youtube need to leave western democracies and enjoy their oppressed lives in theocratic shitholes. The sheer stupidity of these protests is astounding.
They have a right to be angry and offended. They do not live oppressed lives in theocratic "shitholes". I lived in Lebanon for half my life. Never felt "oppressed."
The people rioting in Sydney are complete idiots. They took it too far. They humiliated Muslims all around the world. They are, however, a minority.


You can be angry and offended without killing people and rioting. But most importantly, you direct that anger towards the people who made the film, not the "west' in general which is incredibly dumb. With that said, and I can't emphasize this enough, the person who made that movie was within his rights to make it. There are just as bad movies made about Christian's and Jews, but they do not react in the same way. As you said, they're a minority, but the fact that so many people try and justify their actions rather then denounce them (not saying it's you) makes me lose a bit of faith in humanity.

Anyway, those people rioting are the only people I referred to, in my post I didn't once say that they represented all muslims. Imo, many countries in the middle east are very much theocratic and I think Islam plays a very large role in determining the legal system in many such countries, but that's neither here nor there.
Actually the only theocratic countries in the middle east are : Yemen, Afghanistan, Somalia, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Mauritania, Oman and Iran. Besides the countries i listed many Islamic countries adopt democratic ideologies.

Those are a lot of countries lol :P.

Otherwise, you can't really classify Iraq as anything "yet" because it's kind of a failed state, Egypt's recent election of a leader from the Muslim brotherhood presents the potential for an increasingly fundamentalist government (although it's definitely not there yet), Hezbollah has a very significant presence in Lebanon as does Hamas in the Gaza strip. Although they may accept "democratic ideologies" as you attest, the presence of fundamentalist Islam is a stark reality in most countries in the middle east.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: MonsieurHulot on September 17, 2012, 08:09:16 pm
Quote from: paulsterio on September 17, 2012, 01:23:31 am
This is why we shouldn't even have religion in the first place, there would be nothing to hate (eliminating the initial problem) and the issues of aggression would also be more or less curbed.
I think that there will always be something people will fight over. If religion were removed, people would use something else as the spark for their rage.
In Syria, Bashar Al-Assad's remarkably sectarian government looks likely to be violently overthrown, not because of his religious views, but because of his treatment Syria's people. Almost all conflicts are started by unfair treatment on a side, and religion is so often used as a scapegoat.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: brenden on September 17, 2012, 08:23:32 pm
Quote from: MonsieurHulot on September 17, 2012, 08:09:16 pm
Quote from: paulsterio on September 17, 2012, 01:23:31 am
This is why we shouldn't even have religion in the first place, there would be nothing to hate (eliminating the initial problem) and the issues of aggression would also be more or less curbed.
I think that there will always be something people will fight over. If religion were removed, people would use something else as the spark for their rage.
In Syria, Bashar Al-Assad's remarkably sectarian government looks likely to be violently overthrown, not because of his religious views, but because of his treatment Syria's people. Almost all conflicts are started by unfair treatment on a side, and religion is so often used as a scapegoat.
Or the reason for the mistreatment.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: MonsieurHulot on September 17, 2012, 08:29:40 pm
Quote from: brenden on September 17, 2012, 08:23:32 pm
Quote from: MonsieurHulot on September 17, 2012, 08:09:16 pm
Quote from: paulsterio on September 17, 2012, 01:23:31 am
This is why we shouldn't even have religion in the first place, there would be nothing to hate (eliminating the initial problem) and the issues of aggression would also be more or less curbed.
I think that there will always be something people will fight over. If religion were removed, people would use something else as the spark for their rage.
In Syria, Bashar Al-Assad's remarkably sectarian government looks likely to be violently overthrown, not because of his religious views, but because of his treatment Syria's people. Almost all conflicts are started by unfair treatment on a side, and religion is so often used as a scapegoat.
Or the reason for the mistreatment.
Perhaps, but not in this case. His government was praised for little- if any- discrimination on the basis of religion.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: paulsterio on September 17, 2012, 10:14:55 pm
Quote from: LovesPhysics on September 17, 2012, 08:02:05 pm
I'm not at all religious, but it's a bit unfair to pin it on religion when it should be pinned on extremists and those can't can't control their emotions instead.

And we both know that removing religion is not going to happen.

I'm not pinning it on ALL religion, but what I'm trying to express is that religion is the root cause of many problems around the world and if religion wasn't present, those issues would lessen in magnitude or would cease to exist.

Even though there is a difference between fundamentalist religions and the majority, the truth is, I doubt those who got angry in Sydney and decided to riot were all fundamentalist Muslims, surely there were many in those protests that we would call "the majority" - so it's not just an issue of the fundamentalist religions.

The reason why religion causes so much trouble is because people link it so closely with their identity, not to mention that the religion itself might advocate things such as "war in the name of religion" and such. For example, let's say one of those Muslim men who were in the riots likes McDonalds. If I told him that McDonalds was shit, that Ronald McDonald and the owners are nothing more than womanisers and made a film like Supersize Me, I doubt he would be starting a protest. He'll just be like "OK, whatever" - that's the issue with religion, those people can't look at insults to their religion and say "OK, whatever".
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: FlorianK on September 18, 2012, 01:13:06 am
The irony of the situation.

(http://imageshack.us/a/img337/7205/54799628248351518979770.jpg)
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: ninwa on September 18, 2012, 10:00:28 am
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/girl-8-calls-on-islamic-youth-to-back-jihad/story-e6frg6nf-1226475239074

I have no words
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Thu Thu Train on September 18, 2012, 03:20:31 pm
Protest Fashion (via Reddit)
http://imgur.com/a/Vxi3p
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: paulsterio on September 18, 2012, 05:41:39 pm
This is the reason why many people view Islam as a violent and aggressive religion.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: thushan on September 18, 2012, 08:33:02 pm
...and I feel for the peaceful Muslims whose name is being tarnished by these extremists.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Biceps on September 18, 2012, 10:11:08 pm
relevant to every topic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bZkp7q19f0
:)
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Mao on September 18, 2012, 10:35:07 pm
Quote from: MyNameIsBob on September 18, 2012, 03:20:31 pm
Protest Fashion (via Reddit)
http://imgur.com/a/Vxi3p

Oh man. Does anyone else get the urge to make a satirical ad campaign for these brands?
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: mark_alec on September 18, 2012, 10:43:14 pm
Quote from: Mao on September 18, 2012, 10:35:07 pm
Oh man. Does anyone else get the urge to make a satirical ad campaign for these brands?
I'd rather a sartorial ad campaign.

*ducks*
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Soul_Khan on September 19, 2012, 10:21:40 am
Quote from: thushan on September 18, 2012, 08:33:02 pm
...and I feel for the peaceful Muslims whose name is being tarnished by these extremists.
A strict reading of the Quran, the traditional scholar's interpretation,and the hadith suggests that they're actions aren't condemned by the good book. Considering that the peaceful verses were abrogated by the later more violent verses in the Quran, I don't see how any moderate and peaceful muslim can convince a strict Imam (who have all the control of the people btw) to choose the way of peace. Just look at the imams in Saudia Arabia, Yemen, Afghanistan, Iran, etc. and you will see that those who are hardcore fundamentalists (taking every word of the Quran and the hadith extremely seriously) generally endorse these violent acts (especially towards Jews).

This is why moderate Islam is a joke - because it's simply not a true representation of the religion.

I'm not complaining that there are no peaceful Muslims - but peaceful Muslims are those who don't take the Quran and Hadith seriously.

I can garauntee you for a fact that those who were protesting in Sydney were the ones who took their religion seriously (going to the mosque continually, reading the quran, reading the hadith, etc.) and those at home watching their fellow brothers and sisters in Islam make a fool of themselves didn't.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: thushan on September 19, 2012, 10:46:49 am
But the question is, are people meant to take the Quran THAT seriously? It draws parallels to the verses in the Old Testament (which encouraged some abhorrent things) and the New Testament. People tend to pick and choose the latter. Are these people not taking the Judeo-Christian faith seriously?

However, there is the point that the New Testament comes AFTER the Old Testament and, from my understanding, renounced the Old Testament, whereas the violent verses in the Quran came later and renounced the peaceful ones. :/
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: enwiabe on September 19, 2012, 01:28:11 pm
And that's why I conclude that religious moderates are that way because their morality is innate. They are naturally going to disagree with the vile parts of their religion because they are good people.

Unfortunately, their endorsement of their religion paves the way for those who do not have a moral compass to take the whole thing literally and do disgusting things. Like chop people's hands off for stealing bread, and stoning women for being raped.

The quran and the hadiths say you can do all of that. The moderates are too civilised to entertain such ugly behaviour, but the fundamentalists are convinced by their imaginary friend that this is what they must do.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: thushan on September 19, 2012, 02:45:58 pm
"And that's why I conclude that religious moderates are that way because their morality is innate. They are naturally going to disagree with the vile parts of their religion because they are good people."

In other words, people who pick and choose elements of the Bible or the Quran or any other holy book are able to do so using moral values OUTSIDE religion, or from ANOTHER religion (outside their own).

Kinda supports the point that religion is not necessary to develop good morals.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: vashappenin on September 19, 2012, 03:54:41 pm
Quote from: Soul_Khan on September 19, 2012, 10:21:40 am
This is why moderate Islam is a joke - because it's simply not a true representation of the religion.

I'm not complaining that there are no peaceful Muslims - but peaceful Muslims are those who don't take the Quran and Hadith seriously.

I can garauntee you for a fact that those who were protesting in Sydney were the ones who took their religion seriously (going to the mosque continually, reading the quran, reading the hadith, etc.) and those at home watching their fellow brothers and sisters in Islam make a fool of themselves didn't.

Hah. Consider what you're saying before making blunt statements like this.

Moderate Islam is not a joke. Heck, why even say moderate Islam?!? Islam is one religion... okay, there's some extremists,but put that aside and we're all still Muslims. I seriously feel hurt when reading some of the comments put forth by some people. I mean seriously, okay, these Muslims in Sydney did act violently, and I too believe that maybe this wasn't the right approach.. But why go dissing the rest of the Muslims?

It's fine for you to have your own opinion, say whatever the hell you want about this event happening in Sydney, but by all means, why are you extending it out to other Muslims? I don't see other religions getting bagged when a minor group of them decides to do something stupid?

Maybe those who were protesting in Sydney should've cut down on the violence, but no way does that mean Muslims at home watching them on TV aren't taking Islam seriously.
I am a Muslim who goes to the mosque whenever possible, reads the Quran, Hadith, etc., and for your information, I take my religion very seriously.

I can without a doubt say that peaceful Muslims do take the Quran and Hadith seriously.
So please, stop make disrespectful claims like these Because that's just down right rude and wrong.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Soul_Khan on September 19, 2012, 04:24:01 pm
Can you please explain to my why is it we see this type of violent reaction ONLY from Muslims? Why don't Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, or Jews get offended when their religion is portrayed in a negative light, they are as passionate about their religion as Muslims. Any why is it that Islamic theocratic countries are one of the most oppressing and inhumane places to live in? I'm speaking here primarily about Saudi Arabia and their disgusting system of Sharia Law which by the way is supposed to coincide directly with the Quran and the Hadiths.

I never said this is how all Muslims should act nor did I generalize their behavior towards all Muslims - I admit that their are plenty of peaceful Muslims out there and they are the majority. I said they're behavior will not be condemned by the Quran nor the Hadiths and thus is perfectly consistent with the religion.

Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Biceps on September 19, 2012, 04:27:59 pm
Quote from: Soul_Khan on September 19, 2012, 10:21:40 am
Quote from: thushan on September 18, 2012, 08:33:02 pm
...and I feel for the peaceful Muslims whose name is being tarnished by these extremists.
A strict reading of the Quran, the traditional scholar's interpretation,and the hadith suggests that they're actions aren't condemned by the good book. Considering that the peaceful verses were abrogated by the later more violent verses in the Quran, I don't see how any moderate and peaceful muslim can convince a strict Imam (who have all the control of the people btw) to choose the way of peace. Just look at the imams in Saudia Arabia, Yemen, Afghanistan, Iran, etc. and you will see that those who are hardcore fundamentalists (taking every word of the Quran and the hadith extremely seriously) generally endorse these violent acts (especially towards Jews).

This is why moderate Islam is a joke - because it's simply not a true representation of the religion.

I'm not complaining that there are no peaceful Muslims - but peaceful Muslims are those who don't take the Quran and Hadith seriously.

I can garauntee you for a fact that those who were protesting in Sydney were the ones who took their religion seriously (going to the mosque continually, reading the quran, reading the hadith, etc.) and those at home watching their fellow brothers and sisters in Islam make a fool of themselves didn't.
I have to say i disagree. I can assure you 75% of those protesting in Sydney don't even pray their 5 daily prayers.
I despise their actions and the repercussions it has inflicted us with and I follow Islam.
I take the Quran and Hadith very seriously.
I don't approve of the video as well, but I just hate the fact that they resort to violence the way they did.
Notice the religious leader that caused them to begin rioting is, in fact, not educated in the Quran or the Hadith. Other leaders condemn their actions.
I urge you guys to not make generalizations based on the actions of these hooligans.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: JellyDonut on September 19, 2012, 04:45:12 pm
Quote from: Soul_Khan on September 19, 2012, 04:24:01 pm
Can you please explain to my why is it we see this type of violent reaction ONLY from Muslims?
*Predominantly from muslims. Anders Beverik is an example of a Christian believer that committed largescale murder. He was more anti-Islamic than he was against multiculturalism. From his manifesto, he had no problem associating with an African, so long as he was Christian.
As to why Muslims are generally the violent ones, only the US has a culture that holds freedom of speech sacrosanct. Most arab nations don't share the same sentiment which is evident in the enacting of blasphemy laws. Since murder for blasphemy is sanctioned by the state, it wouldn't be a stretch to say that the citizens would view it as a justifiable act.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: abcdefghijklmnopq on September 19, 2012, 04:46:25 pm
Okay so a person makes a film clearly to infuriate the Muslims and also calls it "innocence of Muslims" and hence suggests that all Muslims are as depicted by the film. He also insults the prophet, someone who means as much to the Muslims as their own parents, in a disgusting way. AN's view on the film: 'it's his right-freedom of speech' . But hey freedom of speech has LIMITS and that movie clearly passed the limits, but no one gives a shit because it was against Muslims and this western world as a matter of fact is becoming increasingly anti Muslim.

A protest began in Sydney, at first quite peacefully but then unfortunately became violent. Many police were unfortunately injured as the group got a bit too furious. All Australian Muslims were quickly labelled as extremists and them being in Australia questioned. In fact Andrew Bolt even went as far as saying maybe the Muslim entry into Australia should be restricted, I think he has forgotten the fact that white people STOLE this land ::). Every protest gets violent just look at the anti-Japan protest in China were they are taking people out of cars and assaulting, yet no one says anything but because this Muslim protest got a bit out of hand Muslims are violent/ extremists and what not.

Everywhere I look, Herald sun articles, youtube or whatever every person that comments talks about their Hate for Islam/Muslims. Not one bloody person looks at the cause. Not one person suggests that perhaps the movie was a bit too inappropriate and should be deleted. Not One. All I see is HATE. One comment read "The world would be better without Muslims".

Clearly this film should never have been made and instead of banning the film everyone in society, media is exerting full energy and effort into declaring Muslims as extremists etc. Why don't you delete the damn film? What purpose does it serve anyway? Why doesn't anyone see how HURT the Muslims are by this? Why doesn't anyway see as an obvious attack on all of us?

And talking about picking and choosing, it looks like you guys also pick and choose what articles to share how about this one:
Police appeal over text messages

Meanwhile, Victoria Police is urging anyone who can identify the sender of a vitriolic text message inciting violence against Muslims in Melbourne to contact CrimeStoppers to "stop any nonsense developing.''

The text message asks for non-Muslim Australians to attend a protest in Melbourne's CBD  this Sunday in response to the violent demonstrations that were held in Sydney last weekend.

Yesterday it was revealed a pro-Islam rally was being planned outside the State Library on Sunday, leading to possible conflict between the two groups.

"I've seen some other stupid comments on Facebook, so these are always quite concerning when you get this sort of incitement going on,'' Deputy Commissioner Tim Cartwright said this morning on radio station 3AW.

"I'll call it ugly, I mean this is criminality, vilification and just the sort of thing we don't want to see.

"We will be acting early and if we can track down who's responsible for this we will be paying them a visit well before Sunday,'' he added.

"We do take it seriously. We will be trying to identify the group or the people and paying them a visit as soon as we can to investigate it and make sure it doesn't happen.

"We expect the best, but plan for the worst. We will certainly be ready to respond if we see any signs of violence.

"If you know who's sending them I would urge people to contact Crime Stoppers so we can get in early and stop any nonsense developing,'' he added.

The text message, seen by the Herald Sun, reads: "ATT: All Australians, this Sunday these Muslim **** are planning a protest in OUR city. I call on all brothers and sisters to meet at (deleted by Herald Sun) on Sunday for a united march to (deleted by Herald Sun.)

"Let's show these (deleted by Herald Sun) that we run this county (sic) not them.''

The rest cannot be published by the Herald Sun.

It ends: "Spread the word and come ready for a battle for our rights and our land. They thought Cronulla riots were bad. Australians Unite!!!''

"I've got to say that the response from the broader community, the Islamic leaders, from all sorts of faiths across the week has been very reasonable and reflects the sort of community we live in - this text message doesn't,'' Tim Cartwright said
------------------------

And Tim Cartwright wtf are you on about? from what i've seen text messages like this encompasses exactly how the broader community (non-muslims) have been reacting!

SHOULD THE MOVIE HAVE BEEN MADE? NO
SHOULD THE SYDNEY PROTEST TURNED VIOLENT? NO I really wish that it hadn't perhaps then, just maybe, maybe, one or two people would have realized the stupidity of this film and have backed them up. MAYBE.
IS MUSLIM ANGER JUSTIFIED? YES
WHY ISN'T ANYONE ELSE AGAINST THE MAKING OF THE FILM? BECAUSE THEY ARE TOO BUSY SPREADING WORDS OF HATE ABOUT ISLAM, BELIEVE THAT FREEDOM OF SPEECH MEANS ONE CAN DO WHATEVER THEY LIKE EVEN IF IT HURTS SOMEONE ALTHOUGH IF THIS HAD BEEN AGAINST SOME OTHER RELIGION I'M 1000% THEY WOULD RESPOND THE SAME WAY AND YOU KNOW WHAT NO ONE WOULD BE TALKING ABOUT THE RESPONSE THEY WOULD'VE REMOVED THE MOVIE ALREADY.

What i;ve come to realise is that Muslim's aren't becoming anti western but westerner's are becoming anti-Islamic which is clearly evident through the comments they make and the large numbers that make them. You don't have to look far to notice this.

People also keep saying that they have made stuff like this for 'every religion' which is utter bullshit, no one has ever made a film just focused on denigrating a religion and its people.  This film was clearly spreading the word of hate (which i think it got across quite readily) and had no other purpose. So clearly it shouldn't exist but living in this time, where people are becoming anti-Islamic (admit or not) everyone is supporting it instead and finding entertainment in watching people get hurt over this.

Here is another article you guys left out:
Growing backlash

Police are investigating a Facebook page calling for "Aussies" to retaliate against Muslim protests, which had 732 "likes" at 8.15am yesterday before it was taken down.

"People should be aware that the dissemination of (inciting) material is unacceptable and ... appropriate action will be taken," a police spokesman said.

Meanwhile, a Federal Government inquiry into multiculturalism has been swamped with Islamophobic and racist submissions since the weekend riot.

Many of the 513 submissions accepted by the inquiry assert that multiculturalism has failed, that Muslims "refuse to assimilate" and threaten Australia's democracy.
--------------

I can't believe i'm still shocked by the amount of hate out there for us people!
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: ninwa on September 19, 2012, 04:51:04 pm
Firstly, please don't make duplicate accounts, it's against the Code of Conduct.

Secondly,
Quote
Why don't you delete the damn film? What purpose does it serve anyway? Why doesn't anyone see how HURT the Muslims are by this? Why doesn't anyway see as an obvious attack on all of us?

JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE HURT DOESN'T MEAN YOU CAN COMMIT VIOLENT ACTS.

Nobody is defending the damn film. But censoring something just because someone else didn't like it is far worse than any film that could ever be made.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Soul_Khan on September 19, 2012, 04:56:12 pm
Quote from: JellyDonut on September 19, 2012, 04:45:12 pm
Quote from: Soul_Khan on September 19, 2012, 04:24:01 pm
Can you please explain to my why is it we see this type of violent reaction ONLY from Muslims?
*Predominantly from muslims. Anders Beverik is an example of a Christian believer that committed largescale murder. He was more anti-Islamic than he was against multiculturalism. From his manifesto, he had no problem associating with an African, so long as he was Christian.
As to why Muslims are generally the violent ones, only the US has a culture that holds freedom of speech sacrosanct. Most arab nations don't share the same sentiment which is evident in the enacting of blasphemy laws. Since murder for blasphemy is sanctioned by the state, it wouldn't be a stretch to say that the citizens would view it as a justifiable act.
Yes but that's quite different since Anders Beverik did not commit those acts because he was offended by a YouTube film or a cartoon insulting Jesus rather it was out of his own prejudice and hate towards muslims and multiculturalism in general.

Anyone I repeat, anyone, who thinks it's right to retaliate in a violent way just because they're offended or because they deeply revere their beloved prophet or god has is utterly immoral. This applies to Christians, Jews, Hindus, or people of any other religion.




Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: abcdefghijklmnopq on September 19, 2012, 05:01:35 pm
@ ninatron many people on this forum as well as not, are defending the film justifying it as 'freedom of speech'.

I never said that anyone should've and should resort to violence. But it happened. What also happened was that film. No one will talk about the film though!

enough said.


Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Soul_Khan on September 19, 2012, 05:05:05 pm
"Those who annoy Allah and His Messenger - Allah has cursed them in this World and in the Hereafter, and has prepared for them a humiliating Punishment." - Surah 33, Ayah 57

Since the penalty of apostasy and blasphemy is death (possibly by beheading) in Saudia Arabia which is a country which implements Sharia Law which by the way is derived from both the Quran and hadith, why in the world should I listen to anything a western Muslim says concerning apostasy or blasphemy when your scholars and law makers in Saudia Arabia say something the complete opposite. If you disagree with their laws then you obviously disagree with the Quran and Hadiths too since they are DERIVED from it.


Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Truck on September 19, 2012, 05:11:07 pm
Quote from: abcdefghijklmnopq on September 19, 2012, 04:46:25 pm
SHOULD THE MOVIE HAVE BEEN MADE? NO
SHOULD THE SYDNEY PROTEST TURNED VIOLENT? NO I really wish that it hadn't perhaps then, just maybe, maybe, one or two people would have realized the stupidity of this film and have backed them up. MAYBE.
IS MUSLIM ANGER JUSTIFIED? YES
WHY ISN'T ANYONE ELSE AGAINST THE MAKING OF THE FILM? BECAUSE THEY ARE TOO BUSY SPREADING WORDS OF HATE ABOUT ISLAM, BELIEVE THAT FREEDOM OF SPEECH MEANS ONE CAN DO WHATEVER THEY LIKE EVEN IF IT HURTS SOMEONE ALTHOUGH IF THIS HAD BEEN AGAINST SOME OTHER RELIGION I'M 1000% THEY WOULD RESPOND THE SAME WAY AND YOU KNOW WHAT NO ONE WOULD BE TALKING ABOUT THE RESPONSE THEY WOULD'VE REMOVED THE MOVIE ALREADY.

What i;ve come to realise is that Muslim's aren't becoming anti western but westerner's are becoming anti-Islamic which is clearly evident through the comments they make and the large numbers that make them. You don't have to look far to notice this.

People also keep saying that they have made stuff like this for 'every religion' which is utter bullshit, no one has ever made a film just focused on denigrating a religion and its people.  This film was clearly spreading the word of hate (which i think it got across quite readily) and had no other purpose. So clearly it shouldn't exist but living in this time, where people are becoming anti-Islamic (admit or not) everyone is supporting it instead and finding entertainment in watching people get hurt over this.

Here is another article you guys left out:
Growing backlash

Police are investigating a Facebook page calling for "Aussies" to retaliate against Muslim protests, which had 732 "likes" at 8.15am yesterday before it was taken down.

"People should be aware that the dissemination of (inciting) material is unacceptable and ... appropriate action will be taken," a police spokesman said.

Meanwhile, a Federal Government inquiry into multiculturalism has been swamped with Islamophobic and racist submissions since the weekend riot.

Many of the 513 submissions accepted by the inquiry assert that multiculturalism has failed, that Muslims "refuse to assimilate" and threaten Australia's democracy.
--------------

I can't believe i'm still shocked by the amount of hate out there for us people!


I'll fix it for you: Should the movie have been made? NO.
Is Muslim anger against the film justified? NO.

Have you read the protocols of the elders of zion? Have you seen monty python's depiction of christianity? A book that depicts Jews far worse then your movie about muslims and a movie that denigrates christianity quite a lot... and they're honestly the tip of the iceberg.

The moral of the story is this: The vast majority of people think the movie is filth. But the fact that these idiots would protest it, when we live in a country where JUST AS BAD FILMS/TEXTS are regularly published is idiotic. This movie wasn't promoted by the government or a social group, it was uploaded by a RANDOM IDIOT and even the actors in the movie were conned into doing it. Then the fact that these people redirect their anger towards a society which had no fucking influence in the making of the movie, which widely condemns it, and then claim "we'd be just as pissed off if was our religions"... that is BULLSHIT. If someone insults Christianity/Jews, the individuals who follow that faith may certainly be insulted, but you'll never see them protesting and rioting because of a random insult that a random person with no political/social influence made.

Case in point: http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-one-murdered-because-of-this-image,29553/

Yet to see riots.

EDIT: And nobody talks about the film, because nobody gives a fuck about the film. The film is shit, the way people reacted to the film is far, far, worse.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: JellyDonut on September 19, 2012, 05:18:13 pm
Quote from: abcdefghijklmnopq on September 19, 2012, 04:46:25 pm
SHOULD THE MOVIE HAVE BEEN MADE? NO
SHOULD THE SYDNEY PROTEST TURNED VIOLENT? NO I really wish that it hadn't perhaps then, just maybe, maybe, one or two people would have realized the stupidity of this film and have backed them up. MAYBE.
IS MUSLIM ANGER JUSTIFIED? YES
WHY ISN'T ANYONE ELSE AGAINST THE MAKING OF THE FILM? BECAUSE THEY ARE TOO BUSY SPREADING WORDS OF HATE ABOUT ISLAM, BELIEVE THAT FREEDOM OF SPEECH MEANS ONE CAN DO WHATEVER THEY LIKE EVEN IF IT HURTS SOMEONE ALTHOUGH IF THIS HAD BEEN AGAINST SOME OTHER RELIGION I'M 1000% THEY WOULD RESPOND THE SAME WAY AND YOU KNOW WHAT NO ONE WOULD BE TALKING ABOUT THE RESPONSE THEY WOULD'VE REMOVED THE MOVIE ALREADY.

Christians have had their crucifix (with jesus on it) submerged in a glass of piss and put on display. A lot of death threats and vandalism, but none of it ever materialised into actual deaths.

Even when an attack did occur during the screening of Scorsese's The Last Temptation of Christ, it was nowhere near the scale of what is happening right now

Muslim anger is understandable but the guy isn't subject to Islamic law so y'all just gotta deal with it
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: ninwa on September 19, 2012, 05:25:37 pm
Quote from: abcdefghijklmnopq on September 19, 2012, 05:01:35 pm
@ ninatron many people on this forum as well as not, are defending the film justifying it as 'freedom of speech'.

I never said that anyone should've and should resort to violence. But it happened. What also happened was that film. No one will talk about the film though!

enough said.

The fact that you blame the film shows that you think the violence was, in some way, justified. That a mere film, which most of the protestors didn't even SEE, justified the deaths of innocent embassy workers, the damaging of property and the injuring of police.

That to me is a whole lot more disgusting than the film itself.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: abcdefghijklmnopq on September 19, 2012, 05:26:15 pm
http://www.islamicwritings.org/quran/peace/does-the-quran-teach-violence/

"It is important that we study the religious texts in their proper context. When these texts are not read in their proper textual and historical contexts they are manipulated and distorted.”
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: JellyDonut on September 19, 2012, 05:31:58 pm
So out of curiosity (you don't have to answer), why do you adhere to Islam? If the teachings are to be read only in a textual and historical context, why follow it in the 21st century?
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Lasercookie on September 19, 2012, 05:34:34 pm
Personally, I don't see what is so offensive about the film. I watched through that trailer and all I got out of it was some laughs at how badly produced it was. So what if someone decides to make a film about what is supposedly a depiction of the prophet Muhammad. Clearly that's not the 'true' depiction of Muhammad that Muslims believe in. I don't see how it could shake your beliefs. There's a lot worse criticisms / arguments against Islam out there that would seem a better candidate to rustle everyone's jimmies. The film pales in comparison in terms of being "offensive", to the extent it can be brushed off like a fly.

I guess there's the notion that there's a few people that don't like Muslims that's so offensive. So what if someone doesn't agree with your beliefs? They don't have to. So what if people don't like the prophet Muhammad? They don't have to.

If they were to actually impede upon your right to practice your religion, than that would be an issue. That doesn't seem to be occurring here. Likewise, everyone has the right to practice what they want to. Everybody has the right to have their beliefs criticised. If you still believe in it despite criticism, then I guess that's a strong indicator of the level of faith you have.

I don't know the exact hadith/quran references, but there's those parts where Muhammad himself copped a lot of persecution, but he simply took it like a boss and dealt with in a calm fashion. Compared to the persecution mentioned there, to get so worked up over a film seems to be a bit of joke.

The film trailer was out for a few months, because people were not aware of it there were no riots. It could just as easily be ignored right now. In terms of the Islamophobia in Western countries, just watching the news/political leaders speak, I don't see much support for the film in terms of what it's actual content is. I don't think it's valid to assume that the entire world is against Muslims / you personally. That's the kind of tone that you seem to be radiating. Yes, there is that minority that seems hell-bent on persecuting Muslims - which is really only an issue if it doesn't remain peaceful / if that respect as human beings is lost (to criticise Islam isn't necessarily losing respect for you as a person, they have a right to disagree with it). I think if you look on the bright side - and especially the situation in Australia, it's actually pretty damn good.

Specifically to the Sydney protest / in Australia:
I didn't see the Australian leaders condemn Islam as a whole. Instead what I saw a support for religious tolerance. Obviously the violent behaviour has been condemned by all. In that police conference it was noted that the protest wasn't registered lawfully beforehand. Why not?

Personally, I don't see why (even a peaceful) protest over the film is even worth it. If it's to create better awareness of Islam in Australia then there's better means of doing that (and probably would relate to issues irrelevant to this film).
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Russ on September 19, 2012, 05:39:43 pm
@multiaccounting dude, I like the way you're selectively not responding to things

Quote from: thushan on September 19, 2012, 02:45:58 pm
Kinda supports the point that religion is not necessary to develop good morals.

You can always continue this discussion into the realm of what quantifies good morals or bad morals in the absence of a divine figure/hard moral code
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Soul_Khan on September 19, 2012, 05:43:43 pm
Quote from: abcdefghijklmnopq on September 19, 2012, 05:26:15 pm
http://www.islamicwritings.org/quran/peace/does-the-quran-teach-violence/
oh god.. not this again

- if i bring up verses from the quran to support my position, you will say the verses are out of context
- if i bring up verses from the hadith to support my claims (even if I'm quoting from a reliable and trusted Sunni Islamic source such as Sahih Bukhari or Sahih Muslim) you will say it is not reliable


so please.. tell me why the verse is out of context, if you read the verses before and after it you will see that it is perfectly within the right context.

generally it's very hard to be open-minded if you are deeply religious because you only accept the evidence that agrees with your position.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: abcdefghijklmnopq on September 19, 2012, 06:07:50 pm
Quote from: ninatron on September 19, 2012, 05:25:37 pm
Quote from: abcdefghijklmnopq on September 19, 2012, 05:01:35 pm
@ ninatron many people on this forum as well as not, are defending the film justifying it as 'freedom of speech'.

I never said that anyone should've and should resort to violence. But it happened. What also happened was that film. No one will talk about the film though!

enough said.

The fact that you blame the film shows that you think the violence was, in some way, justified. That a mere film, which most of the protestors didn't even SEE, justified the deaths of innocent embassy workers, the damaging of property and the injuring of police.

That to me is a whole lot more disgusting than the film itself.

No ninatron it doesn't show that i justify the violence- it shows that i justify the anger, NOT the VIOLENCE.
As I have said before, I really really wish that the violence hadn't happened and am extremely SORRY for it too. I wish the people who did this had instead thought about a more rational and peaceful way to deal with, it is NOT FAIR that innocent people have been killed in other countries because of this.

It is also NOT FAIR that this movie was made in the first place. But anyways, no one will ever see that, so I guess there is no point in me explaining that.

So where do I stand? well like i've said many times I wish the protest had been different not only here but everywhere else in the world and I only hope that people see that most of us Muslim's sitting at home are quite disappointed about the reaction too, we are also disappointed about the stupid film (which should already be banned). But it is concerning looking at how people have quickly begun to put us all under the same label as 'extremists' etc.

I just hope things calm down, the movie gets deleted and people learn to just respect each other's religion so we can all live peacefully without discrimination and clear channeling of hate towards one religion. I mean what's the point of stupid movie's like that anyway? And when I say this I say it for all religions. We all have different faiths, some don't believe at all but we need to learn to respect each other and be sensitive to each other's feelings. If we all could just give each other some respect and be kind and thoughtful to each other no matter what religion/race/culture etc. this world be a much happier place.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: ninwa on September 19, 2012, 06:16:48 pm
Again, nobody is defending the film. I don't know where you got that from.

But just because you don't like something doesn't mean it should be deleted.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Truck on September 19, 2012, 06:18:11 pm
Quote from: abcdefghijklmnopq on September 19, 2012, 06:07:50 pm
Quote from: ninatron on September 19, 2012, 05:25:37 pm
Quote from: abcdefghijklmnopq on September 19, 2012, 05:01:35 pm
@ ninatron many people on this forum as well as not, are defending the film justifying it as 'freedom of speech'.

I never said that anyone should've and should resort to violence. But it happened. What also happened was that film. No one will talk about the film though!

enough said.

The fact that you blame the film shows that you think the violence was, in some way, justified. That a mere film, which most of the protestors didn't even SEE, justified the deaths of innocent embassy workers, the damaging of property and the injuring of police.

That to me is a whole lot more disgusting than the film itself.

No ninatron it doesn't show that i justify the violence- it shows that i justify the anger, NOT the VIOLENCE.
As I have said before, I really really wish that the violence hadn't happened and am extremely SORRY for it too. I wish the people who did this had instead thought about a more rational and peaceful way to deal with, it is NOT FAIR that innocent people have been killed in other countries because of this.

It is also NOT FAIR that this movie was made in the first place. But anyways, no one will ever see that, so I guess there is no point in me explaining that.

So where do I stand? well like i've said many times I wish the protest had been different not only here but everywhere else in the world and I only hope that people see that most of us Muslim's sitting at home are quite disappointed about the reaction too, we are also disappointed about the stupid film (which should already be banned). But it is concerning looking at how people have quickly begun to put us all under the same label as 'extremists' etc.

I just hope things calm down, the movie gets deleted and people learn to just respect each other's religion so we can all live peacefully without discrimination and clear channeling of hate towards one religion. I mean what's the point of stupid movie's like that anyway? And when I say this I say it for all religions. We all have different faiths, some don't believe at all but we need to learn to respect each other and be sensitive to each other's feelings. If we all could just give each other some respect and be kind and thoughtful to each other no matter what religion/race/culture etc. this world be a much happier place.

It is fair that the movie was made. There are no laws against the movie that he made in Australia. Sure, he *shouldn't* have done so, and the majority of us disagree with it, but there is nothing that should be done except for you to just deal with it, and move on.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: ninwa on September 19, 2012, 07:25:35 pm
Quote from my mum just then: "Do you know any Muslims? Be careful what you say around them! You might get hurt!"

Is this how you want your religion to be perceived? Would you rather be feared or respected?
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: slothpomba on September 20, 2012, 02:09:21 am
Late to the party but my internet miraculously died as i was writing this and didn't return for a few days ( a sign!).

TL;DR Their violence isn't right. Even if the film is horrible, it isn't a proper reaction. At the same time though, we shouldn't ignore the maker of the film was also hateful nor should we accept islamophobia or anything like that.

Quote from: ninatron on September 17, 2012, 01:15:41 am
edit:
Also, I don't understand why you are calling for people to focus on the filmmaker immediately after you acknowledged yourself that the film has very little to do with it:

That was because it wasn't actually the point i was trying to make, at all.

You (unintentionally i'm sure) misread my argument and responded to what you thought it was about.

I don't want to be one of those dicks who shouts out fallacies in conversations like this because they read a wikipedia page, we know whats wrong with this one though.

Intelligence does suggest that it was a preplanned attack. I'm not blaming the film makers for the murders or anything like that, that is quite obviously the reaction of the people to it and its ultimately the fault of the people who perpetrate these crimes.

The point i was trying to make is we're all bashing on about how hateful Muslims are but we're ignoring this film which is hateful within itself. We're giving so much press and showing images of angry Muslims on TV but we're not throwing light on this islamophobic film, which is obviously created to seed hatred, for what it is. It almost seems like when muslims shout at the guy for making this film its hateful but the converse, the guy who made the film isn't nearly as hateful.

That is the point i was trying to make. It almost seems we're accepting of hatred against Muslims here or  that it's ok to hate Muslims.

We can't act like it isn't a problem and we can't like it isn't getting worse either, from a recent poll:

Quote
And Tuesday’s poll echoed that experience, with nearly half of American Muslims saying they had experienced religious or racial discrimination within the past year. About one-third of Mormons said that they had faced discrimination, compared to only one-fifth of Jews, Catholics and Protestants.

They get a far disproportionate amount of press and public anxiety towards them as a community. The media is feeding the frenzy.

The data shows it isn't wholly deserved either (obviously).

A recent report by Europol shows most terrorist attacks are by political groups or separatist groups in the EU:

Quote
The decline in the number of attacks in the EU continued in 2011 with a total of 174 attacks in seven Member States.

The majority of the reported terrorist attacks took place in France (85), Spain (47) and the United Kingdom (26). Spain saw the number of separatist attacks decrease by nearly 50% compared to 2010. A total of 484 individuals were arrested for terrorism-related offences.

Not one religiously-inspired terrorist attack on EU territory was reported by Member States, nor were any single-issue terrorist attacks registered. The killing of two American military personnel at Frankfurt airport by a religiously-inspired individual in March 2011 is not a terrorist attack according to German legislation, although the incident clearly carried some such char-acteristics. Of all specified affiliations, the majority of attacks were committed by separatist groups.

https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/publications/europoltsat.pdf

If we learnt anything from Brevikand Norway its that breeding this kind of hate against minorities can also lead to terrorism and violence.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: ninwa on September 20, 2012, 02:35:24 am
I really don't know how many more times I have to say this:

Quote from: ninatron on September 19, 2012, 04:51:04 pm
Nobody is defending the damn film.

Quote from: ninatron on September 19, 2012, 06:16:48 pm
Again, nobody is defending the film. I don't know where you got that from.

Nobody is arguing that it wasn't hateful (although to be honest I almost fell asleep watching it and have barely any idea what it was even about - and I'm pretty sure most of the rioters haven't watched it either)
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: slothpomba on September 20, 2012, 03:17:36 am
Quote from: Soul_Khan on September 19, 2012, 10:21:40 am
A strict reading of the Quran, the traditional scholar's interpretation,and the hadith suggests that they're actions aren't condemned by the good book.

A strict reading of Dr. Seuss does in-fact compliment my cherished belief that there is indeed a cat in the hat.

The thing people are failing to appreciate is that Islam is not a monolithic bloc.

There is are more than a few different schools of interpretation and historicity, not to mention regional and personal variation as well. In the same way you can't point to a Christianity, you can't point to a Islam.

Quote from: Soul_Khan on September 19, 2012, 10:21:40 am
Just look at the imams in Saudia Arabia....you will see that those who are hardcore fundamentalists...

If you don't understand why this is true in Saudia Arabia then you know absolutely nothing about the history of the kingdom.

It goes back to the establishment of the Saudi state where the house of Saud (why does that sound familiar) made a pact with the house of al-Wahhab. Essentially, the al-saud's would control the temporal realm - economy, external security, etc whilst the house of al-Wahhab had control of the spiritual realm and everything that obviously entails.

The interpretation laid down by al-Wahhab at the time was extremely hard-line (and still is), aka the Wahhabi schoool. To make matters worse this has been for a long time the official school of Islamic thought in the kingdom and the scholars have been propelled to high positions. Saudi Arabia is also pouring tremendous amounts of oil wealth into spreading their particular interpretation (see soft power).

It would sort of be like if we lived in a time when the power of the church was intertwined with the holy roman empire (anyone remember the inquisitions?). A time we can't forget that the church was massively corrupt and mal-aligned.

Quote from: Soul_Khan on September 19, 2012, 10:21:40 am
generally endorse these violent acts (especially towards Jews).

Christians and Jews as "People of the Book" (eg. the abrahamic religions)/ ahl al-kitab have a special protected status within Islam. Let's not forget, historically, the jews were a collection of tribes in arabia and conflicts happened in the distant history. Let us also not forget that Israel has caused significant tensions for Arab nations but this is a political issue as well.

At one the of high points of Islamic culture and politics in Spain (Muslims did actually reach all the way into Europe, Spain of course being just below France, many seem surprised by that) Jews, Christians and Muslims managed to co-exist relatively peacefully and with relative freedom and prosperity (want more info? clickity click).

There is a difference between hating jews and being opposed to the state of Israel in its current form in one way or another. You can be opposed to North Korea and the government but not be necessarily against the north korean people.

We also shouldn't confound things done especially in the name of Islam with things that have happened to of occur in Islamic places or be committed by Islamic people. People were doing horrible shit to each other way before Islam came along (surprise!). People will continue to do horrible shit. In less than developed countries like China, with a low level of religiosity, we still see plenty of cases of rape, murder, revenged, etc.

Quote from: Soul_Khan on September 19, 2012, 10:21:40 am
I can garauntee you for a fact that those who were protesting in Sydney were the ones who took their religion seriously (going to the mosque continually, reading the quran, reading the hadith, etc.) and those at home watching their fellow brothers and sisters in Islam make a fool of themselves didn't.

The ones that went are more likely than not fired up young men. The word was spread by a text-message. The kind of pictures show us a similar age distribution that we saw at the unfortunate tragedy that was Cronulla. A fair few of those i would wager are Muslims in name alone and only went to protect community identity or out of some kind of perceived insult. If you asked them, they might say they were a Muslim but then head down to the club on the weekend, get smashed and never pray. Sometimes its a fine line between who and who isn't a muslim but in my example, they aren't. The others in the protest are the more conservative elements that obviously got fired up by this kind of thing.

All movements have their odd-balls. There is a particular paleogeologist who invoked the kraken (a super intelligent sea monster) to explain a certain distribution of fossils. Is he representative of geologists? Are the ultra-conservative American Christians who are absolutely opposed to evolution and so many teachings about social justice representative of Christianity as a whole? Nope. It's not black and white, its shades of grey. There are plenty of decent Muslims out there who just go about their daily life like you and me and practice their religion in private. The idiots just happen to shout louder and get more press.  We shouldn't forget there were plenty of people peacefully protesting (which is a democratic right, absolutely nothing wrong with this), talking to the community about Islam and handing out brochures and qurans to those who wanted them. Sadly, all their efforts and sentiments were worried by the dickish few. Muslims being average people like everyone else or helping out the community doesn't nearly sell as many papers or generate as much press as a minority doing scary things.

------

It seems people here have absolutely 0 understanding of the Quran or Islamic History (not targeting you specifically thushan) and proceed to make claims based off that obviously flawed knowledge. Imagine attempting surgery with your sole qualifications being that you played the game operation once.

Quote from: thushan on September 19, 2012, 10:46:49 am
Whereas the violent verses in the Quran came later and renounced the peaceful ones. :/

You'll find its in reverse. A more correct term for what you called renunciation is "abrogation".

The Quran is split into distinct portions revealed in certain places, in certain times, under certain circumstances.

A lot of the supposedly violent verses that are often taken out of context refer to the conflicts that the Muslims and Muhammed (unlike Jesus he was also a politician and a general) were in at the time. Some of this can be seen simply by reading the context around the passages and others can be obtained by reading interpretative material.

------------

Quote from: Soul_Khan on September 19, 2012, 04:24:01 pm
Can you please explain to my why is it we see this type of violent reaction ONLY from Muslims? Why don't Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, or Jews get offended when their religion is portrayed in a negative light, they are as passionate about their religion as Muslims.

Ill just leave this here... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_violence_in_India#Modern_India
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: thushan on September 20, 2012, 09:00:48 am
Quote from: thushan on September 19, 2012, 10:46:49 am
But the question is, are people meant to take the Quran THAT seriously? It draws parallels to the verses in the Old Testament (which encouraged some abhorrent things) and the New Testament. People tend to pick and choose the latter. Are these people not taking the Judeo-Christian faith seriously?

However, there is the point that the New Testament comes AFTER the Old Testament and, from my understanding, renounced the Old Testament, whereas the violent verses in the Quran came later and renounced the peaceful ones. :/

King - I stand corrected then. Should have said that my understanding of Islam and the like is limited - I was basing that last comment I said on the post above, which said that the later verses abrogated the earlier.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: abcdefghijklmnopq on September 20, 2012, 12:00:07 pm
Quote from: ninatron on September 19, 2012, 07:25:35 pm
Quote from my mum just then: "Do you know any Muslims? Be careful what you say around them! You might get hurt!"
Is this how you want your religion to be perceived? Would you rather be feared or respected?

Exactly what I mean by people are quickly extending the rally in Sydney to all Muslims which isn't fair at all. I don't want people to hate on me because i'm Muslim, or be fearful of me because i'm Muslim. I'm not violent, as a matter of fact i'm Muslim and I hate violence and I get extremely scared and hurt watching anyone get hurt. But does this fact not make me Muslim anymore? It's important to realise that those people who got violent were individuals and not representative of Islam or the Muslim people.

Quote from: Soul_Khan on September 16, 2012, 01:33:13 am
I think the movie was extremely stupid.. however I support their freedom to make it. The fact of the matter is we can't let freedom of speech that is one of the foundations of our civilization be trumped just because a bunch of thugs get butthurt and can't take criticism.

This is one example of someone being in support of the making of the film, there are many out there, you only have to view the comments people make to realise that people believe that a movie clearly encouraging the mocking of Muslims and instigating HATE towards them is okay to make and was Sam Bacile's RIGHT. I don't believe anyone should have the right to direct SO MUCH HATE towards a group and therefore encourage such behavior in any form whether that be a film or whatever.

KINGPOMBA Thanks a lot. You have no idea how much just one person trying to also focus on the movie and not just the reaction (which I too believe was very poor) means to all of us Muslims. Everyone has been giving the reaction so much attention, but not many people seem to think that the movie should also be condemned. And thanks for realizing that the majority of us are not the way the media has quite successfully (it's sad how much power media has on the public view) depicted.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Mao on September 20, 2012, 12:16:01 pm
Quote from: abcdefghijklmnopq on September 20, 2012, 12:00:07 pm
Quote from: Soul_Khan on September 16, 2012, 01:33:13 am
I think the movie was extremely stupid.. however I support their freedom to make it. The fact of the matter is we can't let freedom of speech that is one of the foundations of our civilization be trumped just because a bunch of thugs get butthurt and can't take criticism.

This is one example of someone being in support of the making of the film, there are many out there, you only have to view the comments people make to realise that people believe that a movie clearly encouraging the mocking of Muslims and instigating HATE towards them is okay to make and was Sam Bacile's RIGHT. I don't believe anyone should have the right to direct SO MUCH HATE towards a group and therefore encourage such behavior in any form whether that be a film or whatever.


Totally incorrect. The freedom of speech does not and should not depend on the consequences, the motivation or how others feel about it. Freedom of speech is not "you can say anything but only if <...>", the freedom of speech is "you can say anything" and that's simply it.

You've seen this quote before: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
And that is exactly what is happening here.

No one approves of the film, but Bacile's right to make the film is absolutely defended. This is at the core of US's first amendment, and also a very important part of many Western philosophies.

EDIT: to clarify, the right to freedom of speech does not depend on the consequences, but it does not preclude the person from the consequences.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: abcdefghijklmnopq on September 20, 2012, 01:29:52 pm
Quote from: Mao on September 20, 2012, 12:16:01 pm
Freedom of speech is not "you can say anything but only if <...>", the freedom of speech is "you can say anything" and that's simply it.

This is totally incorrect.
"Exceptions to free speech in the United States are limitations on the First Amendment's guarantee of free speech and expression as recognized by the United States Supreme Court. These exceptions have been created over time, based on certain types of speech and expression, and under different contexts. While freedom of speech in the United States is a constitutional right, these exceptions make that right a limited one.  Speech that involves incitement, false statements of fact, obscenity, child pornography, threats, and speech owned by others are all completely exempt from First Amendment protections."

Fighting words and offensive speech
Main article: Fighting words
A Westboro Baptist Church protest was the subject of an "offensive speech" Supreme Court case in Snyder v. Phelps (2010)
In Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire (1942), the Supreme Court held that speech is unprotected if it constitutes "fighting words".[28] Fighting words, as defined by the Court, is speech that "tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace" by provoking a fight, so long as it is a "personally abusive [word] which, when addressed to the ordinary citizen, is, as a matter of common knowledge, inherently likely to provoke a violent reaction".[29] Additionally, such speech must be "directed to the person of the hearer" and is "thus likely to be seen as a 'direct personal insult'".[30][31]
Along with fighting words, speech might be unprotected if it either intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly inflicts severe emotional distress.[32] However, such a rule (which has never been explicitly decided) would be limited to private figures. The Court held in Hustler v. Falwell (1988) that satire which could be seen as offensive to a "public figure" is fully protected.[33] Such speech is rooted in a historical protection of political satire.[34] A notable example of a case involving offensive speech was the Court's decision in Texas v. Johnson (1989), which struck down a law criminalizing flag burning in Texas.[35]
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: JellyDonut on September 20, 2012, 01:51:54 pm
The video was uploaded into public domain. The only way you could and would get offended is if you searched for the video and watched it yourself. That is, it wasn't at all directed to any specific individual in particular. Plus, the freedom for satire is protected under US law, as you pointed out
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Russ on September 20, 2012, 01:52:16 pm
1st amendment does not make criticism of religion illegal fyi

Exempting child pornography, threats of violence and theft of copyrighted material from protection is not analogous with banning things that upset people for arbitrary reasons
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: ninwa on September 20, 2012, 04:13:01 pm
Quote from: abcdefghijklmnopq
This is totally incorrect.
"Exceptions to free speech in the United States are limitations on the First Amendment's guarantee of free speech and expression as recognized by the United States Supreme Court. These exceptions have been created over time, based on certain types of speech and expression, and under different contexts. While freedom of speech in the United States is a constitutional right, these exceptions make that right a limited one.  Speech that involves incitement, false statements of fact, obscenity, child pornography, threats, and speech owned by others are all completely exempt from First Amendment protections."
<quote from American supreme court case>


Why are you quoting American cases...? They have no impact on Australian law or international human rights law?

That aside, I would ask you to re-read what you have quoted, particularly these points:
Quote
personally abusive [word]
Quote
such speech must be "directed to the person of the hearer" and is "thus likely to be seen as a 'direct personal insult'
The film fails on both of these points:
1) It does not personally abuse anybody
2) I assume "directed to the person of the hearer" means that the abusive comment must be directed at a person. The film was uploaded onto Youtube. One had to intentionally seek it out to view it.
It is arguably not a "direct personal insult" due to this (and due to point 1)

As for the second point, please re-read these points in particular:
Quote
(which has never been explicitly decided)
Quote
would be limited to private figures
Quote
The Court held in Hustler v. Falwell (1988) that satire which could be seen as offensive to a "public figure" is fully protected.
1) This rule, as well as being American and therefore having nothing to do with us, was never actually decided as a rule and thus cannot be relied upon.
2) and 3) Mohammed is not a private figure and therefore does not fall under the protection of this rule.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: brenden on September 20, 2012, 07:36:23 pm
Hahahahahaha omfg I just watched the movie. What on Earth?! How absurd. I see no reason this should come down. It's almost hilarious that people took that shit seriously. What did I even just watch!
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: ninwa on September 20, 2012, 07:47:27 pm
Actress in anti-Muslim film to ask for injunction
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: paulsterio on September 20, 2012, 07:51:25 pm
Quote from: brenden on September 20, 2012, 07:36:23 pm
Hahahahahaha omfg I just watched the movie. What on Earth?! How absurd. I see no reason this should come down. It's almost hilarious that people took that shit seriously. What did I even just watch!

It just shows how stupid fundamentalists are, LOL!
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: JellyDonut on September 20, 2012, 09:47:54 pm
Quote from: brenden on September 20, 2012, 07:36:23 pm
Hahahahahaha omfg I just watched the movie. What on Earth?! How absurd. I see no reason this should come down. It's almost hilarious that people took that shit seriously. What did I even just watch!
Sam Bacile voice over made the movie for me. Especially when he did the female voices
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Soul_Khan on September 20, 2012, 09:56:58 pm
Quote from: JellyDonut on September 20, 2012, 09:47:54 pm
Quote from: brenden on September 20, 2012, 07:36:23 pm
Hahahahahaha omfg I just watched the movie. What on Earth?! How absurd. I see no reason this should come down. It's almost hilarious that people took that shit seriously. What did I even just watch!
Sam Bacile voice over made the movie for me. Especially when he did the female voices
Not even his name lol
Yer the voice overs were hilarious.. i'm still confused about how it cost 5 mill to make
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Genericname2365 on September 20, 2012, 11:08:48 pm
"It's time to stop pandering to bigots - Andrew Bolt'
Oh dear...
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: brenden on September 20, 2012, 11:13:20 pm
Quote from: Genericname2365 on September 20, 2012, 11:08:48 pm
"It's time to stop pandering to bigots - Andrew Bolt'
Oh dear...
LOL +1
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: thushan on September 20, 2012, 11:27:54 pm
Quote from: Genericname2365 on September 20, 2012, 11:08:48 pm
"It's time to stop pandering to bigots - Andrew Bolt'
Oh dear...

I'm going to buy the guy a big shovel for his birthday.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: brenden on September 20, 2012, 11:29:13 pm
Quote from: thushan on September 20, 2012, 11:27:54 pm
Quote from: Genericname2365 on September 20, 2012, 11:08:48 pm
"It's time to stop pandering to bigots - Andrew Bolt'
Oh dear...

I'm going to buy the guy a big shovel for his birthday.
I'd rather hit him over the head with one.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: thushan on September 20, 2012, 11:31:21 pm
LOL also, awkward moment when his son was your classmate at school...
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: brenden on September 20, 2012, 11:33:47 pm
Quote from: thushan on September 20, 2012, 11:31:21 pm
LOL also, awkward moment when his son was your classmate at school...
:| Did people give him shit? Or does that not happen at private schools? LOL
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: pi on September 20, 2012, 11:36:08 pm
Haha, I've met the guy in question! Scotch wasn't allowed to do Bolt articles for LAs though :P
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: thushan on September 20, 2012, 11:37:56 pm
Haha, the guy isn't too bad! I liked him.

I remember his views weren't as extreme as his father's, but we didn't really care who his father was to be honest.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Truck on September 20, 2012, 11:38:09 pm
I know it's Andrew Bolt and everything, but did you guys read the article? Actually kinda made some valid points lol.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Genericname2365 on September 20, 2012, 11:43:11 pm
Quote from: Truck on September 20, 2012, 11:38:09 pm
I know it's Andrew Bolt and everything, but did you guys read the article? Actually kinda made some valid points lol.
Pay-wall.  :-\
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: ninwa on September 20, 2012, 11:49:57 pm
Quote from: Genericname2365 on September 20, 2012, 11:43:11 pm
Quote from: Truck on September 20, 2012, 11:38:09 pm
I know it's Andrew Bolt and everything, but did you guys read the article? Actually kinda made some valid points lol.
Pay-wall.  :-\

I can see it fine?? http://www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion/its-time-to-stop-pandering-to-bigots/story-e6frfifx-1226477632907
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Genericname2365 on September 21, 2012, 12:16:25 am
Quote from: ninatron on September 20, 2012, 11:49:57 pm
Quote from: Genericname2365 on September 20, 2012, 11:43:11 pm
Quote from: Truck on September 20, 2012, 11:38:09 pm
I know it's Andrew Bolt and everything, but did you guys read the article? Actually kinda made some valid points lol.
Pay-wall.  :-\

I can see it fine?? http://www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion/its-time-to-stop-pandering-to-bigots/story-e6frfifx-1226477632907
Do you have an account there though? It requires me to sign in.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: ninwa on September 21, 2012, 12:38:41 am
Hell no I would never pay for the Herald Sun

The trick I've found (and it works for the Australian paywall as well) is to google the title and then click on the link - somehow it shows you the entire article

Failing that:
Quote
THE most frightening thing said about the Sydney riot against the Innocence of Muslims video wasn't said by a Muslim.
Digital Pass - $5 weekend papers

No, give the booby prize to Communications Minister Stephen Conroy.

His spokesman announced Conroy wanted Google to review its terms of service to consider pulling the clearly offensive clip from YouTube.

Hey, this is exactly what one of the world's top terrorist leaders wants, too.

"The distribution of this entire film must be banned by the Americans," demanded Hezbollah leader Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah on Monday.

They slandered the purity of his birth, slandered his faith and his morals.

When our own Communications Minister and a terror chief in Lebanon speak as one about banning an obscure video to placate furious Muslims who haven't seen it, we are already halfway to lost.

Even in America we see this same disgraceful scramble to placate mobs threatening to cut our throats at home or burning Western embassies abroad.

The Obama administration falsely blamed Innocence of Muslims for triggering even a deadly al-Qaida assault on September 11 on the US consulate in Benghazi.

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton repeatedly denounced the ultra-low-budget film, as if it were the cause of the lethal Muslim rage and not the excuse for it.

Meanwhile, US authorities raided the film-maker's home after midnight to take him away for questioning over alleged breaches of this jailbird's probation.

Message received.

Make a film attacking Islam and if you aren't hacked to death in the street like Dutch director Theo van Gogh, your own police could drag you out of your bed.

You'll kill us if we don't remove the film? OK, we'll try.

We'll even rough up the film-maker for you.

You won't have to cut our throats, because we'll cut them for you.

What sort of message does Conroy think he's sending? May as well ask Nasrallah what else he wants banned.

Already, Prime Minister Julia Gillard dutifully echoes Nasrallah's contempt for a film I'm almost certain she's never seen, either, calling Innocence of Muslims truly repulsive.

Repulsive? But that the film is (undoubtedly) bad and rude is no reason to wish it suppressed.

If we let jihadists stop us watching trash, we've let them decide for us what trash is.

Trouble is, for a Nasrallah trash includes even prize-winning novels such as Sir Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses and the illustrations of Danish cartoonists who mocked Islam and Islamic fanatics.

That book and those cartoons were also attacked with a murderous rage.

Rushdie was sentenced to death by Iran and, in this latest orgy of outrage, an Iranian religious foundation upped the reward for his killing to $3.5 million.

One of his translators was murdered, and two others wounded.

The Danish cartoonists have also been hunted by jihadists sent to kill them, and three Muslims were jailed over a bomb plot to punish Denmark for its impiety.

Sadly, such violence has worked.

Rushdie was asked by the British government to write an apology for his novel, and some Leftist intellectuals attacked him for his rudeness.

Australian newspapers still refuse to show the Danish cartoons, and Yale University Press didn't dare publish them even in Jytte Klausen's history, The Cartoons That Shook the World.

How careful our publishers and artists now are not to offend such extremists.

Scholastic Australia scrapped an adventure thriller, Army of the Pure, after booksellers and librarians said they would not stock a book with an Islamist terrorist as the baddie, and the Melbourne Comedy Festival banned two acts that joked about Muslims.

Yes, that's the same festival that's staged Catherine Deveny's foul-mouthed tirade against Christianity, God Is Bulls---.

The only difference: Christians don't kill their critics.

Yet every such concession to threats and demands for censorship just invites more.

First, The Satanic Verses had to be outlawed.

Then the Mohammed cartoons.

Now Innocence of Muslims.

Next, who knows - Dante's Inferno, the great Renaissance masterpiece?

Quick, read it before the likes of Conroy decree even Dante's famous descriptions of the damned in hell are too dangerously offensive:

 

I saw one there - so burst wide,

From the chin severed down to where we fart ...

Look at Mohammed and his mangled trunk!

And all the other souls you witness here

Sowed scandal, discord, schism when alive,

And therefore they are cloven as you see.

 

Yes, to hell with bigots who threaten us with death for saying and reading as we please. Give in once, and we'll give in forever.

Trash handed over today, treasure tomorrow.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: brenden on September 21, 2012, 12:49:06 am
Possibly the first Bolt article I have read without wanting to pull my brains out through my nose. Did only read 3/4 of it, but fair calls.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: yearningforsimplicity on September 21, 2012, 01:46:09 am
Quote from: laseredd on September 19, 2012, 05:34:34 pm
Personally, I don't see why (even a peaceful) protest over the film is even worth it. If it's to create better awareness of Islam in Australia then there's better means of doing that (and probably would relate to issues irrelevant to this film).

I don't agree with or condone the violent protests in Sydney, but I can understand why there would be such an uproar by some individual muslims. I say "individual muslims" because it's not everyone that engages in this kind of violent response to the film - you see the guys screaming and inciting violence on TV but maybe you don't see the ones who are friendly and just want to be at peace while spreading the truth about Islam - not always in the hope of forcing the religion on you, but at least of giving you some clarity regarding it. Muslims aren't taught to be violent - they're taught to practice patience and tolerance and I find it unjust when some people (not all but a few) point the finger on all muslims. I know so many people today are well knowledgeable enough to know the truth about Prophet Muhammad and to not pay much attention to the video, but there are people who depend only on the media for their understanding of a religion. There are extremists and fundamentalists in every religion and there are people who will justify violence or wrongdoing with religious principles in every religion. It's not just about Islam. Regardless of the religion, I find it cruel that people would belittle the God or Holy Prophets or any other religious figure of ANY faith. I don't understand how a religious figure could be disgraced to such an extent...I know everyone has free speech and freedom of speech is permissible, but isn't there a place where we should draw the line? Freedom of speech is granted to ensure people have their voice heard and aren't oppressed (i.e. to prevent violence). I know violence wasn't the right answer to all this, but was making the video really necessary either? Was it necessary to make a video knowing that it could potentially cause outbursts of violence or at least global-scale intolerance and embitterment? I know violence need not and should not be the direct answer in response to the video but once again what you saw on TV encapsulates the attitudes of a few muslims - not the whole muslim population. This doesn't, however, mean that muslims aren't unmoved or deeply saddened and heartbroken by whatever has been portrayed in the video. The media has terribly misconstrued Islam and while the muslims that work so hard to spread the right message about the religion succeed at times, a simple 13 min trailer can undo the mutual understanding and spread of knowledge that took so many years to establish :( I don't condone the violent uproar that has been splashed over the media in the past week. I know that it's wrong and not an effective way of responding to the situation. The Prophet Muhammad himself was belittled and demeaned during his times for his spreading of Islam - people hurled rubbish at him, mocked him and plotted to kill him - but eventually his ceaseless patience, love and tolerance even with people who hated him the most meant that people ultimately came to admire him - the muslims partaking in the violent protests are not truly portraying what Islam is about nor how such a situation as this one should be responded to. I don't mean to preach here AT ALL, but I just hope people know that the violent protests are in no way a reflection of the principles of Prophet Muhammad or of Islam - and that although I don't condemn free speech, people like "Sam Bacile" should have at least been a little sensitive of what muslims believe in - not because they're muslims but because they're first and foremost human beings. If Bacile treated others the way he would have wanted to be treated, then maybe this minority group of muslims wouldn't have begun this protest and stopped treating others the way they'd like to be treated. I acknowledge that there is some fault on both sides but in both cases, in the end it's the peaceful and devout well-meaning muslims who lose - and really, that's what hurts the most
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: brenden on September 21, 2012, 01:59:06 am
I got to a school where greater than 50% of people are Muslim and there are absolutely no troubles. I fully recognise that the majority of Muslims, like the majority of all people are peaceful. The protests didn't shake my view in the slightest, nor did the video. As far as contravening the 'truth' of Islam, whatever that may be to many, I think the video did a pretty shit job, 'cause I sat through that thing picking apart the terrible editing and acting.
On necessity, the video certainly wasn't and was by all definitions pointless and having free speech doesn't mean we should exercise it. However I think when 'we should be a little bit sensitive' of beliefs etc. we are entering a dangerous field. All ideologies and beliefs need to be challenged to an extent in democracy. The cruelty of belittling prophets lies within the hands of those who are offended; ultimately, no one can offend you without your permission. Pretty tired atm, sorry of that didn't make sense, I'll come back tomorrow lol
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: yearningforsimplicity on September 21, 2012, 02:19:50 am
Quote from: brenden on September 21, 2012, 01:59:06 am
I got to a school where greater than 50% of people are Muslim and there are absolutely no troubles. I fully recognise that the majority of Muslims, like the majority of all people are peaceful. The protests didn't shake my view in the slightest, nor did the video. As far as contravening the 'truth' of Islam, whatever that may be to many, I think the video did a pretty shit job, 'cause I sat through that thing picking apart the terrible editing and acting.
On necessity, the video certainly wasn't and was by all definitions pointless and having free speech doesn't mean we should exercise it. However I think when 'we should be a little bit sensitive' of beliefs etc. we are entering a dangerous field. All ideologies and beliefs need to be challenged to an extent in democracy. The cruelty of belittling prophets lies within the hands of those who are offended; ultimately, no one can offend you without your permission. Pretty tired atm, sorry of that didn't make sense, I'll come back tomorrow lol

Haha you mean "today" :P and I get what you're trying to say but when people put their belief into something, it's natural that they would get easily offended if that belief is attacked or demeaned  :-\ People do get offended, some of them will not act on their frustration and some will (as we see in the protests). While beliefs should be challenged and tested, why does that have to correspond to denigration and debasement of those beliefs? :( Anyways I don't want to blab on for too long zzzz - I've already said what was on my mind :)
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: abcdefghijklmnopq on September 21, 2012, 01:50:41 pm
Quote from: paulsterio on September 20, 2012, 07:51:25 pm
Quote from: brenden on September 20, 2012, 07:36:23 pm
Hahahahahaha omfg I just watched the movie. What on Earth?! How absurd. I see no reason this should come down. It's almost hilarious that people took that shit seriously. What did I even just watch!

It just shows how stupid fundamentalists are, LOL!

@ Brenden, I don't think you realise the movie was called 'Innocence of Muslims' or if you do, you don't quite understand it's implications. Basically the person who made this film not only denigrates our beloved Prophet (pbuh) but also suggest that all Muslim's are the way he has portrayed and you expect us not to be hurt by it. Furthermore, what you don't understand is that this person he has mocked means a lot to us (as much as our own parents) and for someone to go ahead and put him in such a negative and disgusting light really hurt's. But you and others (mostly) will never understand either because you don't want to, or you believe behavior like that is perfectly acceptable.

@Paul define fundamentalists? We are all angry by this so are we all STUPID for being angry? we have no right to be angry? YOU'RE STUPID to say the least.

To everyone who is judging Muslims based on some violent protests, for example as Ninatron's mum stated and El2012 +1ed, "do you know any Muslims, be careful what you say to them, you may get hurt", it just makes me think how fast people are to attack Muslims, it's scary really. If you like, don't associate with us, it's as simple as that. You wanna take up the stereotypes so be it. You wanna HATE, so be it. And Nintron & El2012 i'm not trying to suggest you are judging I understand you put that quote up to demonstrate that people, including your mum, are judging and quickly taking up a negative image of Muslims because of the violence and I don't believe this should happen and isn't right.

This movie should clearly be banned. It not only denigrates our Prophet but also all Muslims. It questions our humanity and our morals. It questions our being. It encourages people to hate, it promotes a negative image of all Muslims and anything like that whether it be against Islam or any other religion/culture/race should not be acceptable. Anything that suggests a specific group is inferior to all others should not be acceptable. It should be banned so people don't think it's okay to engage in such a racist and ill-intentioned behavior.

Kate's topless pictures were banned (and i don't care if that's somewhere else and blah blah blah) the  point is that something like that can be banned but a movie which attacks a group of people and questions their morals/ values cannot be deleted because of freedom of speech. This is just ridiculous, freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom of HATE.

All in all this film should be banned, whether it breaches the first amendment or not. And no you will not be giving in to terrorist groups and bigots as Andrew Bolt cleverly suggests to persuade the public that it shouldn't be banned. It is the only correct step, and promotes the respecting of each other. If the film remains, that just demonstrates that it is perfectly okay to pick on a minority group and suggest that these people are inferior and whatnot.

And as yearingforsimplicity states, you can question and disagree but does that mean you can mock, make fun of and degrade people. To question a group's humanity. To encourage people that this sort of disgusting behavior is okay because hey it's 'freedom of speech'. 

edit: Herald Sun poll: Was the French magazine in the wrong to publish topless pictures of Kate Middleton?

yes: 2187 (78%)
no: 610 (22%)

I would love to see a poll of : Should the anti-Islamic film trailer be banned which promotes hatred towards Muslims and depicts a negative image of all Muslims not just the prophet?
I hope unlike the majority on AN, people actually think freedom of speech doesn't mean stuff like this should exist, and agree that banning it is the most appropriate action.

Oh an youtube terms and conditions:
We encourage free speech and defend everyone's right to express unpopular points of view. But we don't permit hate speech (speech which attacks or demeans a group based on race or ethnic origin, religion, disability, gender, age, sexual orientation/gender identity, or their status as a returned soldier).

yet they refuse to remove the film  ::) you can't have it both ways you-tube either you encourage hate speech or take the damn thing off!
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Starlight on September 21, 2012, 02:25:39 pm
Quote

El2012 +1ed


This was in regards to the consequences caused by the protest (i.e. the extremists who took it upon themselves to resort to physical violence to police who were simply doing their job). However, I do not hold this view for every muslim and I am aware this is not an accurate representation of all muslims.

Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: abcdefghijklmnopq on September 21, 2012, 02:33:40 pm
Quote from: El2012 on September 21, 2012, 02:25:39 pm
Quote

El2012 +1ed


This was in regards to the consequences caused by the protest (i.e. the extremists who took it upon themselves to resort to physical violence to police who were simply doing their job). However, I do not hold this view for every muslim and I am aware this is not an accurate representation of all muslims.

I should edit my comment, i should've clarified it with you and Ninatron in my post. I apologise, I wasn't suggesting that you are also judging (or Ninatron), what I was trying to say was, that people are judging which is evident through Ninatron's comment (who also suggests this is a consequence of the violence) and the fact that you also agreed that this is something that may happen. Obviously my communication skills aren't the best! anyways what I do believe is that, judging people based on a few individuals is not correct, which is what I was trying to convey and those who want to judge can go ahead and so be it. I hope this has clarified things El2012 :)
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Truck on September 21, 2012, 02:35:34 pm
Quote from: abcdefghijklmnopq on September 21, 2012, 01:50:41 pm
Quote from: paulsterio on September 20, 2012, 07:51:25 pm
Quote from: brenden on September 20, 2012, 07:36:23 pm
Hahahahahaha omfg I just watched the movie. What on Earth?! How absurd. I see no reason this should come down. It's almost hilarious that people took that shit seriously. What did I even just watch!

It just shows how stupid fundamentalists are, LOL!

@ Brenden, I don't think you realise the movie was called 'Innocence of Muslims' or if you do, you don't quite understand it's implications. Basically the person who made this film not only denigrates our beloved Prophet (pbuh) but also suggest that all Muslim's are the way he has portrayed and you expect us not to be hurt by it. Furthermore, what you don't understand is that this person he has mocked means a lot to us (as much as our own parents) and for someone to go ahead and put him in such a negative and disgusting light really hurt's. But you and others (mostly) will never understand either because you don't want to, or you believe behavior like that is perfectly acceptable.

@Paul define fundamentalists? We are all angry by this so are we all STUPID for being angry? we have no right to be angry? YOU'RE STUPID to say the least.

To everyone who is judging Muslims based on some violent protests, for example as Ninatron's mum stated and El2012 +1ed, "do you know any Muslims, be careful what you say to them, you may get hurt", it just makes me think how fast people are to attack Muslims, it's scary really. If you like, don't associate with us, it's as simple as that. You wanna take up the stereotypes so be it. You wanna HATE, so be it. And Nintron i'm not trying to suggest you are judging I understand you put that quote up to demonstrate that people, including your mum, are judging and quickly taking up a negative image of Muslims and I don't believe this is right.

This movie should clearly be banned. It not only denigrates our Prophet but also all Muslims. It questions our humanity and our morals. It questions our being. It encourages people to hate, it promotes a negative image of all Muslims and anything like that whether it be against Islam or any other religion/culture/race should not be acceptable. Anything that suggests a specific group is inferior to all others should not be acceptable. It should be banned so people don't think it's okay to engage in such a racist and ill-intentioned behavior.

Kate's topless pictures were banned (and i don't care if that's somewhere else and blah blah blah) the  point is that something like that can be banned but a movie which attacks a group of people and questions their morals/ values cannot be deleted because of freedom of speech. This is just ridiculous, freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom of HATE.

All in all this film should be banned, whether it breaches the first amendment or not. And no you will not be giving in to terrorist groups and bigots as Andrew Bolt cleverly suggests to persuade the public that it shouldn't be banned. It is the only correct step, and promotes the respecting of each other. If the film remains, that just demonstrates that it is perfectly okay to pick on a minority group and suggest that these people are inferior and whatnot.

And as yearingforsimplicity states, you can question and disagree but does that mean you can mock, make fun of and degrade people. To question a group's humanity. To encourage people that this sort of disgusting behavior is okay because hey it's 'freedom of speech'. 

edit: Herald Sun poll: Was the French magazine in the wrong to publish topless pictures of Kate Middleton?

yes: 2187 (78%)
no: 610 (22%)

I would love to see a poll of : Should the anti-Islamic film trailer be banned which promotes hatred towards Muslims and depicts a negative image of all Muslims not just the prophet?
I hope unlike the majority on AN, people actually think freedom of speech doesn't mean stuff like this should exist, and agree that banning it is the most appropriate action.

Oh an youtube terms and conditions:
We encourage free speech and defend everyone's right to express unpopular points of view. But we don't permit hate speech (speech which attacks or demeans a group based on race or ethnic origin, religion, disability, gender, age, sexual orientation/gender identity, or their status as a returned soldier).

yet they refuse to remove the film  ::) you can't have it both ways you-tube either you encourage hate speech or take the damn thing off!


lol it's not hate speech, it shouldn't be banned.

I very rarely agree with the "big bad bolt", but in this case I do. It presents an opinion on muslims, which however wrong or inflammatory, it is allowed to do. It seems you're too thick-headed to realize that the world doesn't revolve around YOU, and the best thing that you can and should do is simply ignore the opinion of those "haters", so to speak. Most people on AN are asians, indians, or essentially people from minorities who have experienced Racism - and when racist movies/films come out (they exist, believe it or not -.-), you don't see them arguing for their removal - they are simply ignored, as they should be. As the saying goes, "I may disapprove of what you say - but I'll fight for your right to say it". As an fyi, you are in no way representative of the muslim majority in Australia - the majority will simply react like any other group when attacked with hate, and either ignore or it or fight it in a way that doesn't result in the death of innocent civilians.

If you can't see yourself accepting the fact that people will have opinions different to you, and think that it's an appropriate reaction to riot about a movie made by a random idiot that has no effect on society as a whole, then perhaps living in a democratic country which protects its citizens rights is not for you. Just saying.

edit: and tbh, this movie could've been a lot worse. Read the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, or Mein Kampf, if you want to read REAL hate speech.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: brenden on September 21, 2012, 02:37:08 pm
Ugh, too whingy; didn't read. I feel like I could write a ULP response on that.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: abcdefghijklmnopq on September 21, 2012, 02:45:39 pm
Quote from: Truck on September 21, 2012, 02:35:34 pm

lol it's not hate speech, it shouldn't be banned.

If you can't see yourself accepting the fact that people will have opinions different to you, and think that it's an appropriate reaction to riot about a movie made by a random idiot that has no effect on society as a whole, then perhaps living in a democratic country which protects its citizens rights is not for you. Just saying.

edit: and tbh, this movie could've been a lot worse. Read the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, or Mein Kampf, if you want to read REAL hate speech.

I never said it was an appropriate reaction, but I do believe the film should be banned. And thanks Truck, I was yet to be told 'go back to your country' and now you've even done that. Oh and your going to tell me what the majority of Muslim's think about this film?

Clearly most people on AN believe it should remain on the net and they are immovable on this point then so be it. I shall not waste my time, the people who can c it's inappropriateness would c it others won't.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: enwiabe on September 21, 2012, 02:59:53 pm
Quote from: abcdefghijklmnopq on September 21, 2012, 02:45:39 pm
Quote from: Truck on September 21, 2012, 02:35:34 pm

lol it's not hate speech, it shouldn't be banned.

If you can't see yourself accepting the fact that people will have opinions different to you, and think that it's an appropriate reaction to riot about a movie made by a random idiot that has no effect on society as a whole, then perhaps living in a democratic country which protects its citizens rights is not for you. Just saying.

edit: and tbh, this movie could've been a lot worse. Read the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, or Mein Kampf, if you want to read REAL hate speech.

I never said it was an appropriate reaction, but I do believe the film should be banned. And thanks Truck, I was yet to be told 'go back to your country' and now you've even done that. Oh and your going to tell me what the majority of Muslim's think about this film?

Clearly most people on AN believe it should remain on the net and they are immovable on this point then so be it. I shall not waste my time, the people who can c it's inappropriateness would c it others won't.

Xenophobia is not tolerated on AN and I am horrified you were subjected to that remark. Truck has been banned for 3 days. This is a public warning to anybody considering xenophobia in their comments.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Biceps on September 21, 2012, 04:25:54 pm
I am really fearful of a fight breaking out at Melbourne CBD due to anti-muslim protests on Saturday. I just hope the Muslims that go do not misrepresent us and end up fighting with the other people.
Today most Muslim leaders in Victoria spoke up against the violence and condemned anyone from going.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: ninwa on September 21, 2012, 07:44:35 pm
It disgusts me that you people are advocating censorship because of some stupid, horribly made film that hurt your feelings. Banning everything that upsets you is NOT free speech. If you are arguing that the film should be banned, don't go around pontificating about how you are for free speech as well. No, you are not.

Also, for the first time in my life I agree with everything Andrew Bolt says and this frightens me
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Starlight on September 21, 2012, 08:14:40 pm
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/8536668/muslim-riot-organiser-arrested
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Russ on September 21, 2012, 08:26:08 pm
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/its-a-mistake-im-not-a-bad-mother/story-e6frf7jo-1226478441135
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: paulsterio on September 21, 2012, 08:26:27 pm
Quote from: abcdefghijklmnopq on September 21, 2012, 01:50:41 pm
Oh an youtube terms and conditions:
We encourage free speech and defend everyone's right to express unpopular points of view. But we don't permit hate speech (speech which attacks or demeans a group based on race or ethnic origin, religion, disability, gender, age, sexual orientation/gender identity, or their status as a returned soldier).

yet they refuse to remove the film  ::) you can't have it both ways you-tube either you encourage hate speech or take the damn thing off!

It's not even hate speech, it's just a stupid movie made by an idiot trying to stir trouble, if you wanted to remove all hate speech off youtube, you would be there forever. There are so many other things just like this that don't become big because they don't become viral.

Although I agree that this is not a joke, it doesn't constitute hate speech and surely is not an acceptable excuse for the violence that's been going on.

Quote from: abcdefghijklmnopq on September 21, 2012, 01:50:41 pm
@Paul define fundamentalists? We are all angry by this so are we all STUPID for being angry? we have no right to be angry? YOU'RE STUPID to say the least.

It's not hard to define a fundamentalist. I don't understand why you didn't google it before asking me, but oh well, I'll do the dirty work for you then. Here.

Yes, you are stupid for being angry. Very stupid. You remind me of immature primary school kids who get angry and throw a tantrum when something doesn't go their way. Do you not realise that one of the reasons why Islam is attacked so often is because you always react in stupid ways?

Yes, you have a right to be angry, I agree with that. But I also have the right to call you stupid for being angry.

I don't understand why you're calling me stupid, if you don't agree with my sentiments that fundamentalist religions are stupid and destroying the world then maybe you should go back to the 10th century. Oh, and here - this might be of use -  http://www.alternet.org/story/151505/how_fundamentalist_religion_is_destroying_the_world
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: thushan on September 21, 2012, 08:53:45 pm
Guys, cool it down.

The guy has a right to be angry, and yes you technically have a right to call him stupid Paul, but that doesn't make your judgement valid. Paul, how would you react if someone's attacked your very way of living, your soft spot, your identity, the way you live your life, the way you define yourself? abcdefghijklmnop has every reason to be angry.

It's only the violence that we're not condoning.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: paulsterio on September 21, 2012, 09:43:50 pm
Thush, I know your judgement is different to mine and I also acknowledge that my judgement isn't always right, however, I never called him stupid to begin with, I said that those who follow fundamentalist religions are stupid, and the truth is, they are, because fundamentalist religions are the root cause of many of the problems of the world, including the oppression of women in the middle east, the concept of crusades and war on religion, and now this whole violence issue.

I think that it's reasonable to say that fundamentalist religion does more bad than good, especially in this day and age where we should be promoting peaceful co-existence, which fundamentalist religions (I'm not saying fundamentalist Islam here, I'm saying fundamentalist religion in general) often opposes.

abcdefghijklmnop then decided to call me stupid for making a reasonable judgement and proceeds to begin an argument with me and it was him who asked me if it was stupid for him to be angry. I never had the intention of calling anyone stupid to begin with (just fundamentalist religion as a concept), abcdefghijklmnop then decides to make matters personal and involve himself in it. From what I could see, I gave him a reasonable reply, which was that if he is to get angry over something like this (which isn't even attacking him personally) then he is stupid.

It's like me knowing you like Apple Macs, then me making a retarded video about how Steve Jobs was a womaniser and how Apple is an ethically wrong company...etc. If you got angry over that and started throwing bricks at my house because I made a dumb video about something you like (something you agree with...etc.) then that is quite stupid.

Not only should violence be condoned, but anger as well, because anger is the root cause of the violence, if anger is curbed, then the violence would not be necessary in the first place.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: abcdefghijklmnopq on September 21, 2012, 10:02:17 pm
Quote from: paulsterio on September 20, 2012, 07:51:25 pm
Quote from: brenden on September 20, 2012, 07:36:23 pm
Hahahahahaha omfg I just watched the movie. What on Earth?! How absurd. I see no reason this should come down. It's almost hilarious that people took that shit seriously. What did I even just watch!

It just shows how stupid fundamentalists are, LOL!

Paul, Brenden suggested that there was no reason for anyone to take the movie seriously (you insult our prophet and we're not supposed to take it seriously?) then you said this shows how stupid fundamentalists are.

But hey, every Muslim is offended by this and did take it seriously, does that make us all fundamentalists and stupid. That was my point, and dude I wasn't literally asking for the definition of fundamentalist.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Starlight on September 21, 2012, 10:07:07 pm
Quote from: paulsterio on September 21, 2012, 09:43:50 pm
I never called him stupid to begin with

Quote from: paulsterio on September 21, 2012, 08:26:27 pm

Yes, you are stupid for being angry. Very stupid.

 ???
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: brenden on September 21, 2012, 10:09:50 pm
Quote from: abcdefghijklmnopq on September 21, 2012, 10:02:17 pm
Quote from: paulsterio on September 20, 2012, 07:51:25 pm
Quote from: brenden on September 20, 2012, 07:36:23 pm
Hahahahahaha omfg I just watched the movie. What on Earth?! How absurd. I see no reason this should come down. It's almost hilarious that people took that shit seriously. What did I even just watch!

It just shows how stupid fundamentalists are, LOL!

Paul, Brenden suggested that there was no reason for anyone to take the movie seriously (you insult our prophet and we're not supposed to take it seriously?) then you said this shows how stupid fundamentalists are.

But hey, every Muslim is offended by this and did take it seriously, does that make us all fundamentalists and stupid. That was my point, and dude I wasn't literally asking for the definition of fundamentalist.
Every Muslim. Full of shit. You're asking us not to generalise then generalising yourself. I haven't met someone at school that gives a shit - and yes, I've been talking about it a lot.
On the former, you are correct. You compared God to your parents and tbh if someone came up to me and said "your mum is a fat slut and a child molester" I'd laugh in their face. Why would you take it seriously when you know it's wrong?
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Starlight on September 21, 2012, 10:13:20 pm
TBH I think everyone's expressed their point of views, this thread has merely become a repeat of what we have previously said.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: paulsterio on September 21, 2012, 10:25:38 pm
Quote from: abcdefghijklmnopq on September 21, 2012, 10:02:17 pm
Paul, Brenden suggested that there was no reason for anyone to take the movie seriously (you insult our prophet and we're not supposed to take it seriously?) then you said this shows how stupid fundamentalists are.

But hey, every Muslim is offended by this and did take it seriously, does that make us all fundamentalists and stupid. That was my point, and dude I wasn't literally asking for the definition of fundamentalist.

1) You made the decision to take it seriously, I didn't make it for you

2) I said fundamentalists are stupid and I stick by that statement.

3) Like Brenden said, not all Muslims are offended (I know some who aren't, which just makes you sound like you're making things up now)

4) I never said that you were a fundamentalist ffs, I said that fundamentalists were stupid, it doesn't mean I said you were a fundamentalist, it's two different statements.

Quote from: El2012 on September 21, 2012, 10:07:07 pm
Quote from: paulsterio on September 21, 2012, 09:43:50 pm
I never called him stupid to begin with

Quote from: paulsterio on September 21, 2012, 08:26:27 pm

Yes, you are stupid for being angry. Very stupid.

 ???

Unless you didn't realise, I never called him stupid to begin with. My first statement was:

Quote from: paulsterio on September 20, 2012, 07:51:25 pm
It just shows how stupid fundamentalists are, LOL!

I made that statement in reference to fundamentalist religion as a whole, not to any particular person.

The second quote you provided was from my second post, after he called me stupid. Just read my post, makes more sense then me trying to recite it.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: thushan on September 21, 2012, 10:41:14 pm
Guys, please cool down!!! I hate seeing people slinging mud at each other. And I don't think I'm the only one.
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: Water on September 21, 2012, 10:44:43 pm
(http://www.faniq.com/images/blog/aYKxg.gif)
Title: Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
Post by: ninwa on September 21, 2012, 11:17:48 pm
Quote from: El2012 on September 21, 2012, 10:13:20 pm
TBH I think everyone's expressed their point of views, this thread has merely become a repeat of what we have previously said.

thank you once again magical fairy of determining-the-end-of-a-thread

abcdetc. now that you've had your say please delete one of your duplicate accounts, thanks