Should France ban the veil?

[Yitzi_K]

Even if it's written in the Qu'ran, it's still sexist and downright insulting to women.

Either god is sexist, or man is sexist. Either way, that shit has to stop.

Ok, so you think G-d is sexist. But seeing as G-d is THE moral authority, who judges everyone exactly according to their merits, who is the very definition of justice and fairness, and who knows exactly what is best for each individual person, I'm not going to argue.

This sums up what is inherently wrong with man and religion; the forfeiture of critical thought in lieu of "because god said so".

But what if G-d really did say so? Are we not to listen to Him?

But how do we know god really did say so? Because some random on the street said he did?

No. I don't listen to randoms on the street. If you want a discussion on how we know the veracity of G-d and His word, I'm up for it (although I know already no one would win), but it's a discussion for another time and place.

[Eriny]

If it's up to interpretation, good, let them interpret it - this is a really small and insignificant point. People should do whatever they feel they need to do to appease God, and they should be able to (provided that nobody is harmed in the process).

I find it also sexist that people assume that Muslim women are obviously all weak and disempowered, and arrogant that they would ideally conform to our way of dressing. I'm sure it's true in some cases, but you can't mandate religious 'brainwashing' and it's certainly not something that Islam has a monopoly on.

[enwiabe]

Even if it's written in the Qu'ran, it's still sexist and downright insulting to women.

Either god is sexist, or man is sexist. Either way, that shit has to stop.

Ok, so you think G-d is sexist. But seeing as G-d is THE moral authority, who judges everyone exactly according to their merits, who is the very definition of justice and fairness, and who knows exactly what is best for each individual person, I'm not going to argue.

This sums up what is inherently wrong with man and religion; the forfeiture of critical thought in lieu of "because god said so".

But what if G-d really did say so? Are we not to listen to Him?

But how do we know god really did say so? Because some random on the street said he did?

No. I don't listen to randoms on the street. If you want a discussion on how we know the veracity of G-d and His word, I'm up for it (although I know already no one would win), but it's a discussion for another time and place.

The law doesn't work on "what if"s. In reality, we work from evidence and facts. You can believe whatever you want, no matter how fanciful. But when you translate that to performing actions on others you better have evidence that you were justified in doing so. If all you can say is "I believe" and "what if?", then you had no right whatsoever to infringe another.

[TrueLight]

ah why can't we just let people decide for themselves what they want to believe in and if you think its wrong then they can work that out for themselves if they want to

[enwiabe]

ah why can't we just let people decide for themselves what they want to believe in and if you think its wrong then they can work that out for themselves if they want to

They sure can decide what they believe in, up until the point where that belief infringes upon the rights of others, at which point such beliefs are forfeit.

[Yitzi_K]

The law doesn't work on "what if"s. In reality, we work from evidence and facts. You can believe whatever you want, no matter how fanciful. But when you translate that to performing actions on others you better have evidence that you were justified in doing so. If all you can say is "I believe" and "what if?", then you had no right whatsoever to infringe another.

I think we've long established that forcing someone to wear a veil is wrong, and must be dealt with by the law, yet you keep harping on about 'infringing others' rights'. I'm not talking about those who are forced to wear it, I'm talking about those who choose to wear it.

You still have not supplied a compelling reason why those who choose to wear the veil should be denied that right. Like you yourself said, "when you translate that to performing actions on others you better have evidence that you were justified in doing so." What evidence do you have that France would be justified in banning those who would choose and prefer to wear the veil from doing so?

[ninwa]

You still have not supplied a compelling reason why those who choose to wear the veil should be denied that right. Like you yourself said, "when you translate that to performing actions on others you better have evidence that you were justified in doing so." What evidence do you have that France would be justified in banning those who would choose and prefer to wear the veil from doing so?

see numerous previous posts from myself and others talking about France's secularism

[enwiabe]

Yitzi, I've already argued the justification from the standpoint of harm minimisation. I said this long ago in the thread, but it ultimately comes down to this debate of which right is more important. Freedom of religious expression, or freedom of equality and physical safety. I already debated this with you. Look at our earlier posts. You seemingly abandoned that debate and ceded those arguments to me in favour of going on this wild goose chase debate of "OMGZ I BELIEVE IN GOD THEREFORE I CAN DO WHAT I WANT WHEN I WANT SO LONG AS HE SAYS IT'S OK"... which you have now also conceded was wrong.

[TrueLight]

something was niggling in the back of my mind when you talk about freedom of religious expression vs freedom of equality
and it think this is it

Does Equality Mean We Are All The Same
http://dailypaul.com/node/132783
and this
http://calhoununderground.wordpress.com/category/editorials/8-20-07-%e2%80%9cforced-equality%e2%80%9d/

but i think you get the point they are making

[enwiabe]

something was niggling in the back of my mind when you talk about freedom of religious expression vs freedom of equality
and it think this is it

Does Equality Mean We Are All The Same
http://dailypaul.com/node/132783
and this
http://calhoununderground.wordpress.com/category/editorials/8-20-07-%e2%80%9cforced-equality%e2%80%9d/

but i think you get the point they are making

... Duh? I never said everyone was completely equal. We are all unique. But what everyone does have equally is their rights under the law. So you're extremely far off topic here, and debating something entirely different. If you actually properly read the post you linked to you'd see where it said "But first, I assume we are in agreement that every single person on earth SHOULD have the same basic human rights"

I advise that you reread the posts in the thread and actually understand what's being talked about here...

[TrueLight]

Souljette, unfortunately, I believe you have been a victim of this brainwashing. It is evident from your seemingly oblivious quote here:

"Do you really believe that if the burqa infringes women's right to equality, they would choose to wear it?  Who would do that?"

Who would do that? Who would choose to wear it? You ask. The fact of the matter is, they don't choose to wear it. Petrified young women who are afraid of the abuse and backlash they would face from family and community if they dared to defy them and their traditions. If you really believe that this does not exist, and that it is not a significant problem in your faith, then I think you ought to open your mind a little bit more to the truth.

The debate here is not really about whether this problem of the subjugation of women in French Islamic society exists, the debate is more about is this an effective means of putting an end to it? And while I do certainly believe what I'm arguing, I do not profess to be correct, as we have no way of knowing until after the fact. I'm of the belief that this will minimise the harm and begin to break open the taboo on women's rights in the French Islamic community. From then on, the progress towards equality will be much quicker.

You will find a litany of examples of persecution of women based on their refusal to wear a niqab. And those are just the ones we know about. I shudder to think at all the oppressed who would be suffering alone, afraid to speak out. They would number far more than those that have had the amazing courage to come forward with their stories in the face of such adversity.

your arguing here about women and men being equal
so i put those articles because its not about everyone being equal

[enwiabe]

Men and women are equal under the law. If you want to make a point, make an actual point. Posting up thousands of links and expecting people to read all the crap in the links you post is just not conducive to a good, free-flowing debate. Notice that everybody else in the thread used links only for supporting evidence, not blindly parroting whatever it is they're trying to say as you have. I mean, really, who wants to debate a link generator?

If you want to argue that men and women are not (or should not be) equal under the law, go for it. I'm more than happy to rebut that, but make an actual argument on your own terms.

I'll even start you off! Consider this, if you're still puzzled by my previous argument:

Why should women only have to wear the burqa? Why are they being punished for the inability of men to control their sexual urges. Biologically, women have sexual urges that are JUST AS POWERFUL as the men's. So why don't the men have to cover up their faces? Do you think that women don't get aroused by men either? Why shouldn't men wear a burqa too in order to aide the women in controlling their sexual urges?

[TrueLight]

wow u went on a tangent about me posting two links up...

because if they want to they can.
is it punishment or is it their beliefs?
because the people who wear the full body cover up ..thats what their culture is

[enwiabe]

It's pretty clear that you haven't read the other posts. Or you have but you haven't understood them. It has been painstakingly explained several times about how many women are forced into wearing it, many are brainwashed and thousands are killed over it.

Please actually post substantive arguments. These questions have already been answered. If you disagree with those answers, then go ahead, but can you try actually threading together a paragraph or two on why you think I'm wrong?

[TrueLight]

It's pretty clear that you haven't read the other posts. Or you have but you haven't understood them. It has been painstakingly explained several times about how most women are forced into wearing it, many are brainwashed and thousands are killed over it.

Please actually post substantive arguments. These questions have already been answered. If you disagree with those answers, then go ahead, but can you try actually threading together a paragraph or two on why you think it's wrong?

okay so you think thats its wrong and they are oppressed etc, so you think the government should ban them i get that
and my position is that the government should not ban them because i think its up to them if they want to stand against it, not someone else imposing this on others...
all the posts ive made in this topic i stand by
so i have my belief and you have yours