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August 16, 2026, 04:15:15 am

Author Topic: The earnings of Arts graduates  (Read 34752 times)  Share 

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brendan

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Re: Which university courses give the best wages???
« Reply #45 on: June 15, 2008, 06:55:17 pm »
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And moreover, along with teaching valuable communication skills, Arts (with all its humanities subjects) enables students to better understand (and thus empathise with) their fellow humans.


Andrew Norton, is the Policy and Government Relations Advisor to Vice-Chancelor Glyn Davis (University of Melbourne), and a research fellow at the Centre for Independent Studies.


On the verbal skills claim:

http://andrewnorton.info/2006/09/norton-vs-the-arts-lobby-again/

"Nor is there any evidence that acquring an arts degree, as opposed to some other degree, gives you generic skills that enable you to adapt better to the ‘changing nature of the labour market’ - though having an arts degree is more likely to mean that you will have to rely on generic skills rather than on the specific content of your course. The book How College Affects Students surveys the American higher education research literature, and struggles to find consistent differences between student majors in development of generic skills, except that quantitative courses tend to increase quantitative competencies (as one would hope). But the book says that the ‘evidence is less clear-cut for the acquisition of verbal skills’, with one study finding that social science courses improved them, but five others not replicating the finding (p.91). Similarly, the evidence on acquiring critical thinking skills is also inconsistent (p.175). It’s not that there aren’t usually improvements in these skills during the university years; it’s just that there aren’t reliable differences between disciplines.

When asked at the end of their course about their acquisition of generic skills, with questions about analytic, problem-solving and written communication skills, ’society and culture’ graduates don’t stand out as having acquired unusually high confidence in their abilities. As reported in Graduate Course Experience 2005, 67.2% of bachelor degree graduates agreed that their generic skills had been improved (that is, on average they picked one of the top two points on a five-point scale). However, graduates in the sciences, engineering, and agricultural and environmental courses all showed slightly higher agreement. The lowest agreement was among architecture students, on 59.2%."


On the interpersonal understanding point:

http://andrewnorton.info/2007/10/do-graduates-from-private-schools-earn-more/#comment-9746
"The Graduate Skills Assessment (GSA) test assesses report writing, argument writing, problem solving, critical thinking, and interpersonal understanding. It hasn’t been used to clearly show much the various degrees add to students’ generic skills. However, two GSA samples, one made up mainly of first-year students, and the other mostly of third and fourth-year students, let us do a rough before and after test.

This comparison showed that later year Arts students did better than first year students on all five skills. So far, so good. Arts students did not, however, improve the most. On four of the five skills, Commerce and Science students improved by larger margins. As this study wasn’t designed to test comparative skill improvement, we should not jump to the conclusion that Commerce and Science are better for generic skills. But it should inspire some scepticism about the claims made on Arts behalf.

We can also look at students’ evaluation of their own progress with generic skills, as collected in the 2001 Course Experience Questionnaire. For problem solving, 66% of humanities and social science graduates agreed that the ‘course developed my problem solving skills’— less than seven of the other nine fields of study in the survey.

Arts graduates rated themselves better on other generic skills, but ended up with an average of just 0.6% above the mean for all fields of study. Arts graduates themselves are considerably more modest about their increased abilities, relative to other disciplines, than are the people who speak on their behalf.

Some employers are happy with the critical thinking skills of their Arts graduates. The GSA suggests why this might be the case. While Arts students do not improve their critical thinking by as much as students in some other fields of study, they started from a high base. Only medical students had a significantly higher average score among first year students. People who are already good at critical thinking are attracted to Arts degrees. So while Arts courses are not exceptionally good at enhancing critical thinking skills, Arts degrees may nevertheless help employers identify prospective employees with critical thinking ability."
« Last Edit: June 15, 2008, 06:58:21 pm by Brendan »

jcc

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Re: Which university courses give the best wages???
« Reply #46 on: June 15, 2008, 07:40:58 pm »
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a) The second article you've referenced states that Sci/Com were best for "four out of five" skills, yet doesn't specify the exact skills.
http://www.dest.gov.au/sectors/higher_education/publications_resources/indexes/by_series/evaluations_investigations_programme/documents/03_2_pdf.htm

From a cursory glance, it's interpersonal skills which are best served by Arts.

b) Regardless of the improvements made by the other degrees, the Arts students still come out stronger than the rest for interpersonal skills and at argument writing. (As evidenced by the report above)

c) "While Arts students do not improve their critical thinking by as much as students in some other fields of study, they started from a high base."
I think the economic term for this would be, the "point of diminishing returns", yes? The Arts students are already strong at critical thinking, argument writing & interpersonal skills, therefore there's comparatively little room for improvement. Throw a student who isn't already strong in those areas though, and chances are they'll have far more substantive improvements than they would otherwise get from a Commerce degree.

d) The previous point also applies to the first article, going by the GSA, people doing Arts degrees generally already have strong communication skills. Of course the benefits for those people are going to be less than they would for the people who don't already have strong communication skills.

e) From the second article "Arts graduates themselves are considerably more modest about their increased abilities" -- doesn't this somewhat negate the credibility of the survey in the first article? The one in the first article *ASKED* whether students believed their skills had been enhanced, as opposed to actually testing the improvement of those skills.

f) Following on from that, I've got to question whether asking students about themselves is honestly the most credible way of getting results anyway.

midas_touch

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Re: Which university courses give the best wages???
« Reply #47 on: June 15, 2008, 07:41:41 pm »
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Just out of curiosity,

where do BA people work?



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brendan

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Re: Which university courses give the best wages???
« Reply #48 on: June 15, 2008, 07:48:04 pm »
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Following on from that, I've got to question whether asking students about themselves is honestly the most credible way of getting results anyway.

Where is the evidence for your claim that" along with teaching valuable communication skills, Arts (with all its humanities subjects) enables students to better understand (and thus empathise with) their fellow humans."


Far out, I was being facetious. Would you like some substantive evidence with that?

Ok then what was the point of this:

I challenge Brendan to come up with a coherent response that doesn't involve citations from newspaper articles and statistics.

This should be interesting.
*sitting back and relaxing and watching this thread with anticipation*

....and then Brendan left (very mysteriously) from the forum.

I think you'd call your departure very "convenient", Brendan?


People put ideas to you and you simply dismiss it; you are to be pitied for possessing such a trait.

Oh you want to talk about dismissing now?

Brendan, just in case I say something that I seriously regret, I am choosing to not respond to your posts. I am getting increasingly frustrated by your robotic-like posts and constant citations of articles.



Brendan, you're being a dick. I'm sorry, but you're intentionally being antagonistic by taking a superior stance on an issue that you know will just rile people up. I don't really see what the point of your posts are. You're also ignoring any points raised by other people about the enjoyment of arts, instead focussing on your points about income. They're raising the point that the wages earnt by an Arts student are not as relevant to them as the interest they have in the courses they take. Perhaps you should consider that, and realise that not everything is about money.

Where have I stated that "everything is about money". Go on quote me.

There is more to life than money, Brendan!

When did I ever say that life is all about money?

Take a long hard look at this thread and your precious Arts criticism thread which you insisted on bumping today.

Where i have said anything to the effect that "Arts is a joke and that there isn't much to be gained from completing it"

you're pretty much calling *all* history completely useless.

No, I didn't, where did I say that?
« Last Edit: June 15, 2008, 08:13:11 pm by Brendan »

brendan

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Re: Which university courses give the best wages???
« Reply #49 on: June 15, 2008, 07:57:17 pm »
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From the second article "Arts graduates themselves are considerably more modest about their increased abilities" -- doesn't this somewhat negate the credibility of the survey in the first article?

This? "The book How College Affects Students surveys the American higher education research literature, and struggles to find consistent differences between student majors in development of generic skills, except that quantitative courses tend to increase quantitative competencies (as one would hope). But the book says that the ‘evidence is less clear-cut for the acquisition of verbal skills’, with one study finding that social science courses improved them, but five others not replicating the finding (p.91). Similarly, the evidence on acquiring critical thinking skills is also inconsistent (p.175). It’s not that there aren’t usually improvements in these skills during the university years; it’s just that there aren’t reliable differences between disciplines." It is not clear whether the research reviewed was from surveys or from direct observation.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2008, 08:00:25 pm by Brendan »

Nick

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Re: Which university courses give the best wages???
« Reply #50 on: June 15, 2008, 08:05:20 pm »
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Bachelor of Arts (Psychology) @ The University of Melbourne

jcc

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Re: Which university courses give the best wages???
« Reply #51 on: June 15, 2008, 08:20:02 pm »
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Quote
This? "The book How College Affects Students surveys the American higher education research literature, and struggles to find consistent differences between student majors in development of generic skills, except that quantitative courses tend to increase quantitative competencies (as one would hope). But the book says that the ‘evidence is less clear-cut for the acquisition of verbal skills’, with one study finding that social science courses improved them, but five others not replicating the finding (p.91). Similarly, the evidence on acquiring critical thinking skills is also inconsistent (p.175). It’s not that there aren’t usually improvements in these skills during the university years; it’s just that there aren’t reliable differences between disciplines." It is not clear whether the research reviewed was from surveys or from direct observation.

No, this:
When asked at the end of their course about their acquisition of generic skills, with questions about analytic, problem-solving and written communication skills, ’society and culture’ graduates don’t stand out as having acquired unusually high confidence in their abilities. As reported in Graduate Course Experience 2005, 67.2% of bachelor degree graduates agreed that their generic skills had been improved (that is, on average they picked one of the top two points on a five-point scale).

As for the research which you've referenced, I don't think its admissible here. We are unable to see the complete statistics, nor how the research was conducted (and if indeed it was done through interviews, we should also be able to view the actual questions asked). Otherwise, the research could quite frankly be biased. This "evidence" is highly selective.

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Where is the evidence for your claim that" along with teaching valuable communication skills, Arts (with all its humanities subjects) enables students to better understand (and thus empathise with) their fellow humans."

Figures 6.2 and 6.7 of the report that I linked to before (the GSA, which was initially referenced in Andrew Norton's article) are a starting point for that -- only Med and Law do better than Arts students in interpersonal understanding. Other than that, simply look at the subjects offered in an Arts degree compared to those in a BCom, BSci, etc. Compared to those in other degrees, there's a lot of subjects that emphasize the understanding of others -- thus all the gender, race, etc subjects.

Quote
Quote
you're pretty much calling *all* history completely useless.

No, I didn't, where did I say that?

You're right, you didn't -- but you sure are obsessed with the literal meaning of things. By mocking the witch hunt history course, you've dismissed quite a significant part of early modern history. If the witch hunt subject is such a joke, then what redeems the rest of the history subjects? Doesn't matter I guess, you're probably just going to now ask me to state "where did I say that subject was a joke?", when in reality, its quite obvious that by listing that group of subjects a few pages ago you were only trying to highlight the supposed ridiculousness of the course.

That's nothing different, really. All throughout this topic you've been subtly implying things and then, when called upon it asking people to quote you on it. Of course, they can't, since you didn't actually say anything (except hide behind a plethora of links) -- but the intentions of those links are patently clear. It's not an admirable thing, nor does it make you look smart. It's quite simply just patronising.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2008, 08:31:58 pm by jcc »

Collin Li

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Re: Which university courses give the best wages???
« Reply #52 on: June 15, 2008, 08:37:40 pm »
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This whole debate has been spurred from extremely defensive people who have imagined arguments made by imaginary straw-men rather than actual claims by actual people.

brendan

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Re: Which university courses give the best wages???
« Reply #53 on: June 15, 2008, 08:39:53 pm »
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All throughout this topic you've been subtly implying things and then, when called upon it asking people to quote you on it. Of course, they can't, since you didn't actually say anything (except hide behind a plethora of links) -- but the intentions of those links are patently clear. It's not an admirable thing, nor does it make you look smart. It's quite simply just patronising.

And all throughout this topic I have simply been the messenger.

The fact that you and others attack me, the messenger, rather than the content of the links themselves, and attribute to me arguments i have never made says more about you than it does about me:

Perhaps you should consider that, and realise that not everything is about money.

There is more to life than money, Brendan!

Take a long hard look at this thread and your precious Arts criticism thread which you insisted on bumping today.

you're pretty much calling *all* history completely useless.




cara.mel

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Re: Which university courses give the best wages???
« Reply #54 on: June 15, 2008, 08:47:17 pm »
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Anyway, being the global moderators that you are, you should realise this thread is clearly not about which uni courses give the best wages and split the thread up into:
-Answering the question of the thread
-Useless arts bashing debate

Also, if you ignore things, then people who love arguing for the sake of it have no-one to argue with and then will stop making you angry. You're only fueling it, nick and co.

bubble sunglasses

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Re: Which university courses give the best wages???
« Reply #55 on: June 15, 2008, 08:48:22 pm »
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C'mon guys, if someone *really* bags Arts we'll give it back to them in spades, but I wouldn't put Brendan's recent posts in this category. The stats on those still seeking a job after 4 months [if that's supposed to be a bad thing] showed arts graduates to be in the middle, out of those surveyed, and the "generic skills" article made me think about what generic skills I'll get and how different they'd be if I was doing somebody else. And as for the esoteric Arts subjects, *I* think the some of the titles are funny/cool, they might be a factor in me choosing to do those subjects :)
 
  

ninwa

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Re: Which university courses give the best wages???
« Reply #56 on: June 15, 2008, 08:48:47 pm »
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Firstly, if you do stand-alone BA do not expect to get a job in the first place let alone worry about wages.
What was the point of that comment then?

Oh come on Brendan, you are an intelligent guy. From the reaction to your "arts criticism" thread, the substantial amount of vocal and active arts students on VN, and the ridiculous amount of arts-bashing that has happened on this forum already (no other course has been bagged so much, and there are many more far more useless courses out there) you should have been able to foresee that your comment would cause offence to at least SOME people here. I understand that it was said in jest but still, for god's sakes, enough is enough.

As an arts student I laughed when I first read the jokes like "what did the arts student say to the science student? 'would you like fries with that?'" etc, but now I have just had enough. It's not funny anymore.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2008, 09:07:01 pm by ninwa »
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brendan

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Re: Which university courses give the best wages???
« Reply #57 on: June 15, 2008, 08:53:50 pm »
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Firstly, if you do stand-alone BA do not expect to get a job in the first place let alone worry about wages.
What was the point of that comment then?

I was exaggerating, but it was to highlight the relatively poor labour market outcomes of such students, which of course is not to imply that an individual ought not do a BA, but it was simply to point out the facts of the matter.

Now I forgot to respond to this before, but i think Nick said it was "audacious" for me to highlight the % of Psychology students still looking for full-time employment after graduation. How is that audacious? I was merely pointing out a statistic that I thought you would find interesting as a future Psychology student.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2008, 08:57:19 pm by Brendan »

jcc

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Re: Which university courses give the best wages???
« Reply #58 on: June 15, 2008, 08:55:14 pm »
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So, what relevance did the following list of links have to the topic?

Quote
121-066 Sexing the Self
http://www.unimelb.edu.au/HB/subjects/121-066.html

760-250 Nymphs, Sluts and Madonnas
http://www.unimelb.edu.au/HB/subjects/121-066.html

106-043 The Victorian 'Supernatural'
http://www.unimelb.edu.au/HB/subjects/106-043.html

German Humour
https://app.portal.unimelb.edu.au/CSCApplication/view/2008/126-464
"This subject considers the questions: What do Germans consider funny?..."

Celebrity Cultures
https://app.portal.unimelb.edu.au/CSCApplication/view/2008/106-409

Theorising the Spectator
https://app.portal.unimelb.edu.au/CSCApplication/view/2008/106-448
"the question of spectatorship in psychoanalytic-semiotic theories of the cinematic apparatus;" WTF?

Queer Theory Ten Years On
https://app.portal.unimelb.edu.au/CSCApplication/view/2008/106-436

 106-047 Art/Pornography/Blasphemy/Propaganda
  https://app.portal.unimelb.edu.au/CSCApplication/view/2008/106-047

  131-085 Witches and Witch Hunting in Europe
   https://app.portal.unimelb.edu.au/CSCApplication/view/2008/131-085

If you were a mere messenger, then the only thing you'd be doing is posting links directly pertaining to the topic at hand (the employability of arts students).

Likewise, why did you feel the need to bump the Arts criticism thread with those links? Sure, you haven't explicitly made a remark against Arts in this thread (except for your exaggeration in your first post, which waas completely inflammatory) -- but given that there's a clear similarity within the links that you've posted, it seems quite clear that you're attempting to discredit Arts. Moreover, is the fact that you've done this en masse, you haven't simply posted one or two links that show Arts to be 'worse off', but rather you've linked to several discrediting webpages over an extended period of time (from the Arts criticism thread till now). That, in itself shows an agenda.

Nick

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Re: Which university courses give the best wages???
« Reply #59 on: June 15, 2008, 08:58:42 pm »
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And explain to me why you decided to highlight "psychology" in bold when you delivered those statistics? I thought you were only the messenger?
Bachelor of Arts (Psychology) @ The University of Melbourne