The earnings of Arts graduates

[brendan]

Figures 6.2 and 6.7 of the report that I linked to before (the GSA, which was initially referenced in Andrew Norton's article) are a starting point for that -- only Med and Law do better than Arts students in interpersonal understanding.

But that doesn't prove your contention that "along with teaching valuable communication skills, Arts (with all its humanities subjects) enables students to better understand (and thus empathise with) their fellow humans." because of self-selection issues that the GSA document itself notes. This requires disentangling a number of confounding factors to determine whether all else equal a person would gain more in relation to communication skills and interpersonal skills by completing a BA compared to other courses.

Other than that, simply look at the subjects offered in an Arts degree compared to those in a BCom, BSci, etc. Compared to those in other degrees, there's a lot of subjects that emphasize the understanding of others -- thus all the gender, race, etc subjects.

Suppose there were X subjects offered in the BA that emphasized the understanding of others, and there were Y subjects offeredin the BCom that emphasized the understanding of others.

If X>Y, does it therefore follow that a BA "enables students to better understand (and thus empathise with) their fellow humans." than say a BCom?

[brendan]

And explain to me why you decided to highlight "psychology" in bold when you delivered those statistics? I thought you were only the messenger?

I was merely pointing out a statistic (that 21.1% of Psych grads were still seeking full-time employment compared to an average of 15.5%) that I thought you would find interesting as a future Psychology student.

[Collin Li]

Let me just reiterate my point in my earlier post that this debate has been driven by those who are imagining claims that have never been actually said.

If you believe you can infer values from what Brendan is saying, let me remind you that they are your words, and not necessarily his.

As for the evidence that he is posting regarding Arts, it is empirical evidence - a statement about the world. It is a positive statement. However, this has little to no implications without a normative statement. An example of a normative statement is: "money is important," and hence combined with the positive statement, if valid, then it argues that arts is not important. However, that normative statement is not something that Brendan has argued for, and so it is up to you decide for yourself how to use the positive statement, according to your own personal values - your own set of normative statements.

[brendan]

you've linked to several discrediting webpages over an extended period of time (from the Arts criticism thread till now).

Discrediting now? Was this discrediting? http://www.graduatecareers.com.au/content/download/3465/14505/file/Grad%20Files%202007.pdf

[jcc]

But that doesn't prove your contention that "along with teaching valuable communication skills, Arts (with all its humanities subjects) enables students to better understand (and thus empathise with) their fellow humans." because of self-selection issues that the GSA document itself notes. This requires disentangling a number of confounding factors to determine whether all else equal a person would gain more in relation to communication skills and interpersonal skills by completing a BA compared to other courses.

And yet, you still found it suffice to reference this report earlier in this topic?

Suppose there were X subjects offered in the BA that emphasized the understanding of others, and there were Y subjects offeredin the BCom that emphasized the understanding of others.

If X>Y, does it therefore follow that a BA "enables students to better understand (and thus empathise with) their fellow humans." than say a BCom?

Not directly, no. But from that, I think its reasonable to infer that Arts gives more opportunity for its students to better understand others. Granted, that doesn't mean everyone is going to actually take full advantage of this -- but I'd assume that more people would take such subjects than they would in say the Commerce faculty where there's a smaller number of these subjects that emphasize interpersonal skills.

Discrediting now? Was this discrediting? http://www.graduatecareers.com.au/content/download/3465/14505/file/Grad%20Files%202007.pdf

I never said every single link of yours was discrediting, now, did I (that was actually a good link!)? I said several of your links were discrediting. The following links are specifically aimed at discredting arts/humanities:
http://vcenotes.com/forum/index.php/topic,2523.0.html
http://cis.org.nz/issue_analysis/IA12/IA12.PDF
Then, of course, all of your links to esoteric subjects.

[brendan]

I never said every single link of yours was discrediting, now, did I (that was actually a good link!)? I said several of your links were discrediting. The following links are specifically aimed at discredting arts/humanities:
http://vcenotes.com/forum/index.php/topic,2523.0.html
http://cis.org.nz/issue_analysis/IA12/IA12.PDF
Then, of course, all of your links to esoteric subjects.

So the fact that Arts graduates typically have labour market difficulties and that arts professors get paid less compared to others is discrediting?

[ninwa]

Brendan, did you honestly not realise that you'd be offending people with your very first remark of "Firstly, if you do stand-alone BA do not expect to get a job in the first place let alone worry about wages." ?

[jcc]

I never said every single link of yours was discrediting, now, did I (that was actually a good link!)? I said several of your links were discrediting. The following links are specifically aimed at discredting arts/humanities:
http://vcenotes.com/forum/index.php/topic,2523.0.html
http://cis.org.nz/issue_analysis/IA12/IA12.PDF
Then, of course, all of your links to esoteric subjects.

So the fact that Arts graduates typically have labour market difficulties and that arts professors get paid less compared to others is discrediting?

Again, what about the subject links? What relevance did they have? You haven't answered that yet.

The links themselves would be no problem, except for the fact that you're linking to such articles so often. By doing so, it makes it appear that you have some sort of agenda against arts degrees. Hell, even the links in this topic might've been ok if you didn't make such an baiting first post within this topic (no matter how facetious it may have been).

[Collin Li]

Brendan, did you honestly not realise that you'd be offending people with your very first remark of "Firstly, if you do stand-alone BA do not expect to get a job in the first place let alone worry about wages." ?

If it offends you, what does that say about your personal values?

If, like some others in this thread, you believe that money or the length of unemployment is not all that matters, then why would it be offensive?

If you can't face the facts, ignore them, don't read them, or find counter-evidence. There is no need for some of these people to be so defensive about some claims that they have imagined, but have not actually been said.

[cara.mel]

If you can't face the facts, ignore them, don't read them, or find counter-evidence. There is no need for some of these people to be so defensive about some claims that they have imagined, but have not actually been said.

What if the claims were implied that they might as well have been written there?

[Collin Li]

If you can't face the facts, ignore them, don't read them, or find counter-evidence. There is no need for some of these people to be so defensive about some claims that they have imagined, but have not actually been said.

What if the claims were implied that they might as well have been written there?

Your words, not his.

Remember that the original post was a request for information about job data.

[ninwa]

Remember that the original post was a request for information about job data.

So his answer that arts graduates wouldn't even get a job was "information about job data"?

[Collin Li]

Yes, but it was an exaggeration - he said so himself.

Why aren't the Engineering and Science students swamping Brendan for not even mentioning their jobs at all? Perhaps we can infer something offensive from this as well.

[jcc]

If you can't face the facts, ignore them, don't read them, or find counter-evidence. There is no need for some of these people to be so defensive about some claims that they have imagined, but have not actually been said.

What if the claims were implied that they might as well have been written there?

Your words, not his.

Remember that the original post was a request for information about job data.

And again, what relevance did his list of esoteric arts subjects have?

[Collin Li]

And again, what relevance did his list of esoteric arts subjects have?

Since when was relevance of importance in this forum?

Nothing changes the fact that they were just statements about Arts being presented. Without a normative statement (an input of personal values), they don't actually contend anything.

I suggest you take up bubbles sunglasses attitude. Just enjoy the fact that those subjects exist, rather than making assumptions about what others are trying to say about them. If he hasn't actually made any claims, and he continues to deny your interpretations of it, then so be it. Simply use your own values to make your own judgements about the facts - they needn't be negative judgements. If you find that the subject list is really so humiliating for Arts, then perhaps you should question your own values, rather than attributing them onto others.

Why isn't there an "Engineering and Science criticism" thread?

Feel free to make one.