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October 22, 2025, 09:02:49 am

Author Topic: [SPLIT] The "finer" points of apologetics and its rebuttal  (Read 36192 times)  Share 

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abeybaby

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Re: [SPLIT] The "finer" points of apologetics and its rebuttal
« Reply #75 on: September 27, 2012, 09:05:24 pm »
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Thought you were a devout christian abes? :/
I am, God is certainly not like that. Jehovas witnesses never made any sense to me.

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Soul_Khan

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Re: [SPLIT] The "finer" points of apologetics and its rebuttal
« Reply #76 on: September 27, 2012, 09:05:32 pm »
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dilmah, seems to me you're an agnostic then if you believe that it is "theoretically possible" that a deistic god exists.
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abeybaby

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Re: [SPLIT] The "finer" points of apologetics and its rebuttal
« Reply #77 on: September 27, 2012, 09:06:21 pm »
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i CLEARLY didnt say that religious arguments justify social laws.

Why shouldn't they? Have the courage to back your convictions. That's the divine word of god. Why should society not obey these words?
because thats a stupid thing to do - I have no right to impose my religious belief as social law. that would make me an idiot.

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enwiabe

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Re: [SPLIT] The "finer" points of apologetics and its rebuttal
« Reply #78 on: September 27, 2012, 09:07:34 pm »
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i CLEARLY didnt say that religious arguments justify social laws.

Why shouldn't they? Have the courage to back your convictions. That's the divine word of god. Why should society not obey these words?
because thats a stupid thing to do - I have no right to impose my religious belief as social law. that would make me an idiot.

But your god is the one true god. Why wouldn't you want all of society to live a godly life?

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Re: [SPLIT] The "finer" points of apologetics and its rebuttal
« Reply #79 on: September 27, 2012, 09:07:53 pm »
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For example, the first on the list: "No condoms in Africa? Because god said so. Enjoy your AIDS epidemic."

So, you're saying that without "the Church" (not religion) this wouldn't be an issue. So we'll play hypotheticals, but surely without the Church preaching against (and I personally do NOT agree with this decision by the Church) homosexuality, AIDS would have had an even more rapid spread initially? In fact, one can argue that the Church has prevented widespread spread of AIDS in much of the world in it's initial stages.

Half the issue f the spread now (which you mentioned), the other half is why it spread in the first place. And in all honesty, the spread in the first place might have been a lot worse had the Church not have intervened (again, I'm not against homosexuality).

This is spurious logic to the extreme. The issue with AIDS initially was not rate of spread, but knowledge. Nobody knew what GRID was, because it was presenting as a diffuse collection of different diseases, that we now know are a result of AIDS. Your argument that the church, by suppressing homosexuality, was suppressing the spread of AIDS doesn't hold water because it would still have reached the same endpoint of global epidemic. There were no drugs to treat it until 5 years later (and even then they cost $10,000 a patient, a year) and whether it spread quickly or slowly didn't matter, because it was still going to become an epidemic.

There are also the obvious social factors, where the attitude towards homosexuality in the mid 1900s was "it's a disease", meaning that if you were gay you didn't really care about what the Church said. I fail to see how the Church promoting it's anti-gay message could have had a substantial impact on HIV transmission in a segment of society that was being oppressed and thus didn't particularly care.

With respect to condoms in Africa, which is what we're actually talking about, I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that the Church was correct. Uganda generally gets mentioned as the model for AIDS in Africa, since they're one of the few countries that have (previously) had a decrease in incidence. There's a lot of political debate about why, but there's a pretty strong correlation between that and the fact that back in the '90s they were very big on sexual education, condom usage etc. In contrast, they've recently swung the other way and HIV rates are unfortunately going back up (relevant)

If you're interested, go read The Wisdom of Whores by Elizabeth Pisani (or visit her website of the same name), since it summarizes the HIV in Africa thing pretty well. She also pays particularly attention to PEPFAR, which was an extension of the US Christian ideology that "abstinence is the only moral way" and imposed absurd requirements to get funding to deal with HIV (33% has to be spent on abstinence, refuses to fund nations that don't support abolishing prostitution, refusing to fund needle exchanges etc.)

Quote
there would have been more unsafe homosexual practice during that INITIAL period (especially given the quality of contraception at the time - 1960s).

What, latex condoms and the pill?

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Re: [SPLIT] The "finer" points of apologetics and its rebuttal
« Reply #80 on: September 27, 2012, 09:08:56 pm »
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Hmm. Agnostic, but very very close to atheist. I don't think anyone, even enwiabe, could be ENTIRELY atheist - because that would imply that you have absolute incontrovertible proof that god doesn't exist. Which I don't have, and nor does anyone to my knowledge.
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enwiabe

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Re: [SPLIT] The "finer" points of apologetics and its rebuttal
« Reply #81 on: September 27, 2012, 09:09:38 pm »
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dilmah, seems to me you're an agnostic then if you believe that it is "theoretically possible" that a deistic god exists.

Soul_Khan, it seems to me you should look up the definition of the phrase "agnostic atheist".

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Re: [SPLIT] The "finer" points of apologetics and its rebuttal
« Reply #82 on: September 27, 2012, 09:09:56 pm »
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The catholic church wasn't strong from a military standpoint. The reason they survived was because the Visigoths and Ostrogoths were Christian themselves, though also only in name. The church was left alone in the various sackings of Rome. I might be skipping a few centuries here but that's why the church was also quick in paying lip service to the Franks.

Having the ability to declare anyone you want as the representative of god, or their people as the chosen ones really came in handy.

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enwiabe

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Re: [SPLIT] The "finer" points of apologetics and its rebuttal
« Reply #83 on: September 27, 2012, 09:10:44 pm »
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Hmm. Agnostic, but very very close to atheist. I don't think anyone, even enwiabe, could be ENTIRELY atheist - because that would imply that you have absolute incontrovertible proof that god doesn't exist. Which I don't have, and nor does anyone to my knowledge.

Indeed. I am an agnostic atheist, the only scientifically defensible position.

enwiabe

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Re: [SPLIT] The "finer" points of apologetics and its rebuttal
« Reply #84 on: September 27, 2012, 09:11:33 pm »
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The catholic church wasn't strong from a military standpoint. The reason they survived was because the Visigoths and Ostrogoths were Christian themselves, though also only in name. The church was left alone in the various sackings of Rome. I might be skipping a few centuries here but that's why the church was also quick in paying lip service to the Franks.

Having the ability to declare anyone you want as the representative of god, or their people as the chosen ones really came in handy.

So what you're saying is that the catholic church had the implied military force of whichever ruling party it got into bed with. Sounds like it had a standing army ready to go at any time it chose...

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Re: [SPLIT] The "finer" points of apologetics and its rebuttal
« Reply #85 on: September 27, 2012, 09:12:37 pm »
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By that logic, all the nations where homosexuality is accepted / not reviled (such as Australia) should have a high rate of AIDS infections. Which is obviously not true

The first notable cases of AIDS appeared in the 60s and 70s whilst the first case of AIDS in Australia occurred in 1982. Many factors need to also be considered such as relative geographic isolation and the improvement of awareness of the condition before cases were detected in the 10-20 year gap.

How does this prove your point that the church was responsible for limiting the spread of AIDS?

Australia was an example to illustrate my point. Please provide evidence showing that countries which do not reject homosexuality have a higher incidence of AIDS.

That quote alone doesn't prove anything, I was just making reference to the hypothetical scene in Australia as questioned in your post.

I know the logic is highly controversial (and I'm acting as a Devil's advocate here for the good of debate - I'm not religious and nor am I against homosexuality), BUT, given the standard of contraception in the 1960s (and earlier) and given that most of the "patient zero"s of AIDS were homosexual and given that most of the INITIAL (and please, I'm only talking initial, enwiabe has made his point somewhat rightly about Africa NOWADAYS, I'm giving the other half of the story here) cases were spread to other homosexual males, it seems fair to assume that if such practice was encouraged or not frowned upon by society, that the problem could have become a lot worse a lot quicker. Furthermore, the fact that AIDS is a resultant of the HIV infection, and that there is a certain latent period for the virus and a certain period of time before a "AIDS" diagnosis can be given, MANY more cases could have appeared in the given time.

As for evidence requested, none can be found as the assumption I'm making is that no Church (or any other religious presence against homosexuality) was present at all, which in no way can be paralleled to any study and set of stats in society today. It's purely hypothetical.

Again, I'm only being Devil's advocate here.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2012, 09:14:27 pm by PhysicsIsAwesome »

abeybaby

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Re: [SPLIT] The "finer" points of apologetics and its rebuttal
« Reply #86 on: September 27, 2012, 09:14:16 pm »
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i CLEARLY didnt say that religious arguments justify social laws.

Why shouldn't they? Have the courage to back your convictions. That's the divine word of god. Why should society not obey these words?
because thats a stupid thing to do - I have no right to impose my religious belief as social law. that would make me an idiot.

But your god is the one true god. Why wouldn't you want all of society to live a godly life?
If god wanted everybody to obey him forcibly, he'd do it himself. thats why you, and everybody else has freewill
« Last Edit: September 27, 2012, 09:15:57 pm by abes22 »

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enwiabe

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Re: [SPLIT] The "finer" points of apologetics and its rebuttal
« Reply #87 on: September 27, 2012, 09:14:40 pm »
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Also abes22, stop claiming the New Testament doesn't have any of the barbarity of the old testament.

Romans 1:26

" Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. (27) In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."

It's also an interesting argument, isn't it? "Oh no no, the old testament was wrong!"

How could god get it all so wrong? And if you're going to claim that we have free will, why did god have to interfere twice in the first place?
« Last Edit: September 27, 2012, 09:16:52 pm by enwiabe »

enwiabe

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Re: [SPLIT] The "finer" points of apologetics and its rebuttal
« Reply #88 on: September 27, 2012, 09:15:21 pm »
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i CLEARLY didnt say that religious arguments justify social laws.

Why shouldn't they? Have the courage to back your convictions. That's the divine word of god. Why should society not obey these words?
because thats a stupid thing to do - I have no right to impose my religious belief as social law. that would make me an idiot.

But your god is the one true god. Why wouldn't you want all of society to live a godly life?
If god wanted everybody to obey him forcibly, he's do it himself. thats why you, and everybody else has freewill

That's some free will, isn't it? Obey me or go to hell.

Soul_Khan

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Re: [SPLIT] The "finer" points of apologetics and its rebuttal
« Reply #89 on: September 27, 2012, 09:16:27 pm »
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Hmm. Agnostic, but very very close to atheist. I don't think anyone, even enwiabe, could be ENTIRELY atheist - because that would imply that you have absolute incontrovertible proof that god doesn't exist. Which I don't have, and nor does anyone to my knowledge.

Indeed. I am an agnostic atheist, the only scientifically defensible position.
What evidence would make you change your position?
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